one explanation of gas prices

Matthew Russotto wrote:
> In article .com>,
> js > wrote:
> >
> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >>
> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from
> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt
> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down
> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather
> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you
> >> imply about the media.
> >
> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
> >explain using economics how this is done?
>
> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into
> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html

That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The
announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices
up, not down.

OK, next.

> However, sneaky
> ways abound.

Black helicopter theory - I get it. Not that you can provide any
evidence, though, huh.

> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations
> relating to gasoline volatility and contents.

No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California
legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction.

> Inspections of
> pipelines using somewhat harsher criteria than normal.

That would increase prices and then only if a pipeline were shut down
and then only if a pipeline load couldn't be shifted.

Care to share the exampl,e. Clearly when pipelines happen, it makes
the news.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14219844/

> Or just a
> whisper in the ear of oil company executives that they'll find the
> government a lot friendlier in the future if they take a certain
> actions now.

Sure, that's it.....conspiracy between Cheney, Bush, and their
immediate family members. Now, how does this change the retail price
of gasoline again?

> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock,

Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining
supply, not the reverse.

> shutting down offshore platforms on some pretext,

Wrong again - increases price, and then it is an increase in crude
price and that hasn't happened.

> imposing an embargo
> on an unfriendly oil-exporting country, etc.

Again, that didn't happen, either.....

OK so that leaves us with the global supply and demand explanation why
the price of gas at retail in the US has dropped 50 cents in the past 6
weeks.

Thanks for playing, though.

> There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
> result in a fully-depreciated one.

So, the Enron accountants found a new job?

Too funny.

bye.

js

In article .com>,
js > wrote:
>
>Matthew Russotto wrote:
>> In article .com>,
>> js > wrote:
>> >
>> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from
>> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt
>> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down
>> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather
>> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you
>> >> imply about the media.
>> >
>> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
>> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
>> >explain using economics how this is done?
>>
>> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into
>> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
>
>http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html
>
>That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The
>announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices
>up, not down.
>
>OK, next.
>
>> However, sneaky
>> ways abound.
>
>Black helicopter theory - I get it.

Black helicopters exist too.

>Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh.

If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't; that's
what being sneaky is all about. But I'm not claiming any manipulation
is going on, only that dismissing the idea out of hand as impossible
is naive.

>> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations
>> relating to gasoline volatility and contents.
>
>No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California
>legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction.

Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain
regulations earlier this summer.

>> Or just a
>> whisper in the ear of oil company executives that they'll find the
>> government a lot friendlier in the future if they take a certain
>> actions now.
>
>Sure, that's it.....conspiracy between Cheney, Bush, and their
>immediate family members. Now, how does this change the retail price
>of gasoline again?
>
>> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock,
>
>Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining
>supply, not the reverse.

You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which
way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Matthew Russotto wrote:
> In article .com>,
> js > wrote:
> >
> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >> In article .com>,
> >> js > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from
> >> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt
> >> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down
> >> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather
> >> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you
> >> >> imply about the media.
> >> >
> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
> >> >explain using economics how this is done?
> >>
> >> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into
> >> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
> >
> >http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html
> >
> >That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The
> >announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices
> >up, not down.
> >
> >OK, next.
> >
> >> However, sneaky
> >> ways abound.
> >
> >Black helicopter theory - I get it.
>
> Black helicopters exist too.

Yeh, sure....

>
> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh.
>
> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't;

Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to
keep a secret?

> that's
> what being sneaky is all about.

How well has Washington ever been able to keep a secret?

> But I'm not claiming any manipulation
> is going on,

I asked the question: "...I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that
retail gasoline prices can
be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
explain using economics how this is done?"

in response to this, "...It's an attempt to debunk the conspiracy
theory that Bush is making gas prices go down to influence the November
elections."

And you listed a variety of conspiracy theories which tended to suggest
that increasing prices is a possibility, though you really missed the
boat on the economic explanation.

> only that dismissing the idea out of hand as impossible
> is naive.

It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices
can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively.

> >> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations
> >> relating to gasoline volatility and contents.
> >
> >No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California
> >legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction.
>
> Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain
> regulations earlier this summer.

Bush did? And which were those? Come on, use a URL and then explain
the economics.

Here are the Sept. 2005 standard RVPs.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b05012.pdf

The Task Force report was issued in June 2006. No changes were made.
RVP Boutique fuel regulations add less than 3 cents to a gallon of gas
and that is a local, not a national effect.

Play again?

Here's the data -
http://www.epa.gov/OMS/boutique/reso...vp%20200 6%22

> >> Or just a
> >> whisper in the ear of oil company executives that they'll find the
> >> government a lot friendlier in the future if they take a certain
> >> actions now.
> >
> >Sure, that's it.....conspiracy between Cheney, Bush, and their
> >immediate family members. Now, how does this change the retail price
> >of gasoline again?
> >
> >> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock,
> >
> >Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining
> >supply, not the reverse.
>
> You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which
> way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis.

Let's stay on topic ok? The question asked was how Bush lowered gas
prices at the pump this past month.

> There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
> result in a fully-depreciated one.

Well, I suppose in the absence of any economic arguments, you now want
to argue accounting practices?

Before further digging your hole, perhaps a quick read of FASB docs
might help?

http://www.fasb.org/st/

Play again?

js

In article . com>,
js > wrote:
>
>Matthew Russotto wrote:
>> In article .com>,
>> js > wrote:
>> >
>> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
>> >> In article .com>,
>> >> js > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from
>> >> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt
>> >> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down
>> >> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather
>> >> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you
>> >> >> imply about the media.
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
>> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
>> >> >explain using economics how this is done?
>> >>
>> >> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into
>> >> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
>> >
>> >http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html
>> >
>> >That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The
>> >announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices
>> >up, not down.
>> >
>> >OK, next.
>> >
>> >> However, sneaky
>> >> ways abound.
>> >
>> >Black helicopter theory - I get it.
>>
>> Black helicopters exist too.
>
>Yeh, sure....

I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men
forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good
reasons to do so.

>> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh.
>>
>> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't;
>
>Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to
>keep a secret?

Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures.

>> But I'm not claiming any manipulation
>> is going on,
>
>I asked the question: "...I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that
>retail gasoline prices can
>be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
>explain using economics how this is done?"
>
>It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices
>can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively.

It's naive to think that they cannot.

>> >> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations
>> >> relating to gasoline volatility and contents.
>> >
>> >No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California
>> >legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction.
>>
>> Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain
>> regulations earlier this summer.
>
>Bush did? And which were those? Come on, use a URL and then explain
>the economics.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042600383.html

>> >> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock,
>> >
>> >Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining
>> >supply, not the reverse.
>>
>> You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which
>> way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis.
>
>Let's stay on topic ok? The question asked was how Bush lowered gas
>prices at the pump this past month.

No: THIS was the question:

>> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
>> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
>> >> >explain using economics how this is done?
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Matthew Russotto wrote:

> In article .com>,
> js > wrote:
>
> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
> >explain using economics how this is done?
>
> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into
> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

A drop in the ocean !

Graham

Matthew Russotto wrote:
> In article . com>,
> js > wrote:
> >
> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >> In article .com>,
> >> js > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >> >> In article .com>,
> >> >> js > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The column (which clearly you haven't read) is not by an expert from
> >> >> >> MSNBC, but rather by one of their senior producers. It's an attempt
> >> >> >> to debunk the conspiracy theory that Bush is making gas prices go down
> >> >> >> to influence the November elections. It's written in a rather
> >> >> >> patronizing tone, implying about those who believe that about what you
> >> >> >> imply about the media.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
> >> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
> >> >> >explain using economics how this is done?
> >> >>
> >> >> The most direct and aboveboard way is through petroleum purchases into
> >> >> and/or release by the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
> >> >
> >> >http://www2.spr.doe.gov/DIR/SilverSt...ewDOE_new.html
> >> >
> >> >That's the data - no change since June - so there goes that. The
> >> >announced increase by 800K barrels in October should have moved prices
> >> >up, not down.
> >> >
> >> >OK, next.
> >> >
> >> >> However, sneaky
> >> >> ways abound.
> >> >
> >> >Black helicopter theory - I get it.
> >>
> >> Black helicopters exist too.
> >
> >Yeh, sure....
>
> I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men
> forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good
> reasons to do so.

Perhaps you missed this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...spiracy_theory

> >> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh.
> >>
> >> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't;
> >
> >Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to
> >keep a secret?
>
> Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures.

I trust CNN and NYT to dig.

> >> But I'm not claiming any manipulation
> >> is going on,
> >
> >I asked the question: "...I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that
> >retail gasoline prices can
> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
> >explain using economics how this is done?"
> >
> >It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices
> >can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively.
>
> It's naive to think that they cannot.

Explain the economics.

> >> >> Stricter interpretations or changes of regulations
> >> >> relating to gasoline volatility and contents.
> >> >
> >> >No changes in the past month that I can find. Although California
> >> >legislation appears to be headed in the opposite direction.
> >>
> >> Check a longer time frame and you'll find that Bush relaxed certain
> >> regulations earlier this summer.
> >
> >Bush did? And which were those? Come on, use a URL and then explain
> >the economics.
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042600383.html

It was April and here is what was said:

"...urged the waiver of clean air rules" whuch didn't happen by the
way.

and

"Still, experts said Bush's actions wouldn't have much impact on prices
at the pump. The president warned that motorists would have to dig deep
into their pockets all summer long."

And here is the price of gasoline historic graph. Note two things.
First, after the Bush announcement gas prices went UP, not down, and
that the shape of the curve shows EXACTLY what demand effects are
during summer driving months - and this effect happens every year.

So, irrespective of what you believe is happening in the deep recesses
of the Bush Whitehouse, the supply and demand for gasoline (and oil)
drives the price - not George or Dick.

DATA.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petro...home_page.html

> >> >> Heavy-handed ways including refusing to allow supertankers to dock,
> >> >
> >> >Again, you got it backwards - that would INCREASE oil be constraining
> >> >supply, not the reverse.
> >>
> >> You asked how oil prices could be manipulated; you didn't say which
> >> way. THAT way was used during the Carter energy crisis.
> >
> >Let's stay on topic ok? The question asked was how Bush lowered gas
> >prices at the pump this past month.
>
> No: THIS was the question:
>
> >> >> >I'm curious - if you are of the opinion that retail gasoline prices can
> >> >> >be manipulated by the executive branch of the US government can you
> >> >> >explain using economics how this is done?

And the context was: "It's an attempt to debunk the conspiracy theory
that Bush is making gas prices go down to influence the November
elections."

Play again?

Didn't think so.

js

In article .com>,
js > wrote:
>
>Matthew Russotto wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>> js > wrote:
>> >
>> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Black helicopters exist too.
>> >
>> >Yeh, sure....
>>
>> I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men
>> forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good
>> reasons to do so.
>
>Perhaps you missed this:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...spiracy_theory

I'm aware of it. The problem is that lazy skeptics took their
skepticism to the point where up until 9/10/2001, you could have
flown a black helicopter onto the White House lawn and the Secret
Service would deny that it existed for fear of being labeled a kook.

And that's about the level of skepticism you're at now.

>> >> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh.
>> >>
>> >> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't;
>> >
>> >Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to
>> >keep a secret?
>>
>> Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures.
>
>I trust CNN and NYT to dig.

Like I said, you only know about the failures.

>> >It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices
>> >can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively.
>>
>> It's naive to think that they cannot.
>
>Explain the economics.

Asked and answered. I've provided several ways the White House can
manipulate the supply (and hence the price) of retail gasoline.
You've mostly claimed they haven't happened, which is a far cry from
it not being possible for them to happen.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Matthew Russotto wrote:
> In article .com>,
> js > wrote:
> >
> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >> In article . com>,
> >> js > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Matthew Russotto wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Black helicopters exist too.
> >> >
> >> >Yeh, sure....
> >>
> >> I assure you, the neither the laws of physics nor the laws of men
> >> forbid the painting of helicopters black. And there are often good
> >> reasons to do so.
> >
> >Perhaps you missed this:
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_h...spiracy_theory
>
> I'm aware of it. The problem is that lazy skeptics took their
> skepticism to the point where up until 9/10/2001, you could have
> flown a black helicopter onto the White House lawn and the Secret
> Service would deny that it existed for fear of being labeled a kook.
>
> And that's about the level of skepticism you're at now.
>
> >> >> >Not that you can provide any evidence, though, huh.
> >> >>
> >> >> If those being sneaky are doing it right, of course I can't;
> >> >
> >> >Then thanks for playing. How well has Washington ever been able to
> >> >keep a secret?
> >>
> >> Hard to say; by definition you only know about the failures.
> >
> >I trust CNN and NYT to dig.
>
> Like I said, you only know about the failures.
>
> >> >It is naive to think that global oil, and hence local gasoline, prices
> >> >can be manipulated by the Whitehouse secretively.
> >>
> >> It's naive to think that they cannot.
> >
> >Explain the economics.
>
> Asked and answered.

Sorry, but no. I showed you with evidence from real data that even
with the best intentions and with ful support of Congress, the
Whitehouse is impotent to significantly alter the short term supply of
gasoline sufficient to change the retail price by more than a few
cents. The April 2006 case is just one data point.

Sorry - but the only way the Whitehouse can impact on the price of gas
is to increase political uncertainty in the Mideast by saber rattling
and that just increases the futures prices of oil and the price of gas.

> I've provided several ways the White House can
> manipulate the supply (and hence the price) of retail gasoline.

The Strategic Oil Reserves is a nominal tool. It has some short term
impact on maintaining prices or slowing their increase.

> You've mostly claimed they haven't happened, which is a far cry from
> it not being possible for them to happen.

The 50 cent drop since late August is NOT a manipulation by the
Whitehouse for the purpose of influencing the November election. It is
a consistent and expected seasonal effect - look at the data yourself -
I have provided the link.

The economics of gasoline prices is linked to the price of oil, not the
Whitehouse.

My economics beats your black helicopters.

js