Honda acceptable oil burn rate

What's the latest Honda words on the amount of oil burn in these
engines? Because some owners of 2007 Toyotas posted that their manuals
say 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.

Many of the newer Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 engines have excessive piston-
bore clearances they piston-slap when cold, so I wouldn't be surprised
of higher oil burn rates in some of these slacker (I4/V6) engines, but
1.1qt/600 miles???

So what do late model Honda I4/V6 manuals say?


http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c40d0/0
"My dealer could not tell me for sure the brand of oil to use--and,
since it could use up to 1.1 qt/600 miles, thought I ought to have an
extra quart along--so is the oil that comes from the factory the same
as the regular 5W 30 that the dealer would use to do an oil change? "

wrote:
> What's the latest Honda words on the amount of oil burn in these
> engines? Because some owners of 2007 Toyotas posted that their manuals
> say 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.

it's about the same for honda.


>
> Many of the newer Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 engines have excessive

"excessive"??? who says they're "excessive"? "excessive" for when the
piston is hot and thermally expanded more than the iron liner it's
sitting in? or "excessive" for some doofus on the interweb that hasn't
measured anything, doesn't know specs, and doesn't know as much as the
honda or toyota engineers on this subject and is simply guessing because
he doesn't know the big picture and feels compelled to tap his keyboard?




> piston-
> bore clearances they piston-slap when cold

many high performance engines do that. to figure out why, check out the
temperature at which the piston is designed to operate, then the thermal
expansion coefficient of that aluminum alloy, then compare that with the
bore dimensions at the [very different] operating temperature of the
iron liners in which it sits.


>, so I wouldn't be surprised
> of higher oil burn rates in some of these slacker (I4/V6) engines, but
> 1.1qt/600 miles???

pistons don't burn oil, ring leakage burns oil. and high performance
rings tend to burn more oil than low.



>
> So what do late model Honda I4/V6 manuals say?
>
>
> http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c40d0/0
> "My dealer could not tell me for sure the brand of oil to use--and,
> since it could use up to 1.1 qt/600 miles, thought I ought to have an
> extra quart along--so is the oil that comes from the factory the same
> as the regular 5W 30 that the dealer would use to do an oil change? "

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:12:00 -0800, jim beam > wrote:
wrote:
>> What's the latest Honda words on the amount of oil burn in these
>> engines? Because some owners of 2007 Toyotas posted that their manuals
>> say 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.

>it's about the same for honda.


>>
>> Many of the newer Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 engines have excessive

>"excessive"??? who says they're "excessive"? "excessive" for when the
>piston is hot and thermally expanded more than the iron liner it's
>sitting in? or "excessive" for some doofus on the interweb that hasn't
>measured anything, doesn't know specs, and doesn't know as much as the
>honda or toyota engineers on this subject and is simply guessing because
>he doesn't know the big picture and feels compelled to tap his keyboard?

excessive is when you have to add oil more often than you have to add
gas.

Thus spake jim beam > :

wrote:
>> What's the latest Honda words on the amount of oil burn in these
>> engines? Because some owners of 2007 Toyotas posted that their manuals
>> say 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.
>
>it's about the same for honda.

Toyota/Lexus V6s got a knock last year for reliability, but I don't
think that had much to do with burning oil.

>
>
>>
>> Many of the newer Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 engines have excessive
>
>"excessive"??? who says they're "excessive"? "excessive" for when the
>piston is hot and thermally expanded more than the iron liner it's
>sitting in? or "excessive" for some doofus on the interweb that hasn't
>measured anything, doesn't know specs, and doesn't know as much as the
>honda or toyota engineers on this subject and is simply guessing because
>he doesn't know the big picture and feels compelled to tap his keyboard?
>
>
>
>
>> piston-
>> bore clearances they piston-slap when cold
>
>many high performance engines do that. to figure out why, check out the
>temperature at which the piston is designed to operate, then the thermal
>expansion coefficient of that aluminum alloy, then compare that with the
>bore dimensions at the [very different] operating temperature of the
>iron liners in which it sits.

F1 engines don't even have rings. And most have what some people
would call "tremendous" clearances. Until they get hot.

When I was drag racing, we used to have very large piston clearances,
but large rings to scavange the oil. But we also rebuilt the engines
between rounds. The only had to last about 40 seconds.

>
>
>>, so I wouldn't be surprised
>> of higher oil burn rates in some of these slacker (I4/V6) engines, but
>> 1.1qt/600 miles???
>
>pistons don't burn oil, ring leakage burns oil. and high performance
>rings tend to burn more oil than low.

Yup.

Actually, leaky valve seals burn more than leaky rings, at least on
older engines. That's why top end rebuilds are usually recommended
first for excessive oil burn (the wrong colored smoke is an indicator
of that, particularly when it looks like mosquito fogging).

I've done an .030 overbore ring job without pulling the engine. It
sucks.

>
>
>
>>
>> So what do late model Honda I4/V6 manuals say?
>>
>>
>> http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c40d0/0
>> "My dealer could not tell me for sure the brand of oil to use--and,
>> since it could use up to 1.1 qt/600 miles, thought I ought to have an
>> extra quart along--so is the oil that comes from the factory the same
>> as the regular 5W 30 that the dealer would use to do an oil change? "

When I changed my oil on my Fit at 6K, it was down less than 1/2 qt.

When we changed my wife's Camry (2007 4 banger) at 18K (after a change
at 11K), it was down so little I really couldn't tell. But the engine
wasn't hot, either.
--
- dillon I am not invalid

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

Dillon Pyron > wrote in
:


>
> Actually, leaky valve seals burn more than leaky rings, at least on
> older engines. That's why top end rebuilds are usually recommended
> first for excessive oil burn (the wrong colored smoke is an indicator
> of that, particularly when it looks like mosquito fogging).


Would there always be smoke on a cold startup with bad valve stem seals?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Dillon Pyron wrote:
> Thus spake jim beam > :
>
>> wrote:
>>> What's the latest Honda words on the amount of oil burn in these
>>> engines? Because some owners of 2007 Toyotas posted that their manuals
>>> say 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.
>> it's about the same for honda.
>
> Toyota/Lexus V6s got a knock last year for reliability, but I don't
> think that had much to do with burning oil.
>
>>
>>> Many of the newer Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 engines have excessive
>> "excessive"??? who says they're "excessive"? "excessive" for when the
>> piston is hot and thermally expanded more than the iron liner it's
>> sitting in? or "excessive" for some doofus on the interweb that hasn't
>> measured anything, doesn't know specs, and doesn't know as much as the
>> honda or toyota engineers on this subject and is simply guessing because
>> he doesn't know the big picture and feels compelled to tap his keyboard?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> piston-
>>> bore clearances they piston-slap when cold
>> many high performance engines do that. to figure out why, check out the
>> temperature at which the piston is designed to operate, then the thermal
>> expansion coefficient of that aluminum alloy, then compare that with the
>> bore dimensions at the [very different] operating temperature of the
>> iron liners in which it sits.
>
> F1 engines don't even have rings.

i think you want to re-check your facts there dillon.



> And most have what some people
> would call "tremendous" clearances. Until they get hot.

precisely my point.



>
> When I was drag racing, we used to have very large piston clearances,
> but large rings to scavange the oil. But we also rebuilt the engines
> between rounds. The only had to last about 40 seconds.
>
>>
>>> , so I wouldn't be surprised
>>> of higher oil burn rates in some of these slacker (I4/V6) engines, but
>>> 1.1qt/600 miles???
>> pistons don't burn oil, ring leakage burns oil. and high performance
>> rings tend to burn more oil than low.
>
> Yup.
>
> Actually, leaky valve seals burn more than leaky rings,

depends on the engine. in designs where the guides are submerged in oil
pooling, yes. when they're above it, like a honda d-series, no, rings
will burn way more.



> at least on
> older engines. That's why top end rebuilds are usually recommended
> first for excessive oil burn (the wrong colored smoke is an indicator
> of that, particularly when it looks like mosquito fogging).
>
> I've done an .030 overbore ring job without pulling the engine. It
> sucks.
>
>>
>>
>>> So what do late model Honda I4/V6 manuals say?
>>>
>>>
>>> http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c40d0/0
>>> "My dealer could not tell me for sure the brand of oil to use--and,
>>> since it could use up to 1.1 qt/600 miles, thought I ought to have an
>>> extra quart along--so is the oil that comes from the factory the same
>>> as the regular 5W 30 that the dealer would use to do an oil change? "
>
> When I changed my oil on my Fit at 6K, it was down less than 1/2 qt.
>
> When we changed my wife's Camry (2007 4 banger) at 18K (after a change
> at 11K), it was down so little I really couldn't tell. But the engine
> wasn't hot, either.

the type of oil matters some in this equation. cheaper base stocks have
apparently have a couple of problems:

1. light fractions mixed with heavy - the light burns easier.
2. chemically weak base stocks that actually break down and get burned
like #1.



> --
> - dillon I am not invalid
>
> When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
> Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
> will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
> matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.
>
>

Tegger wrote:
> Dillon Pyron > wrote in
> :
>
>
>> Actually, leaky valve seals burn more than leaky rings, at least on
>> older engines. That's why top end rebuilds are usually recommended
>> first for excessive oil burn (the wrong colored smoke is an indicator
>> of that, particularly when it looks like mosquito fogging).
>
>
> Would there always be smoke on a cold startup with bad valve stem seals?
>
>
if the oil is pooled and actually leaking down the stem, yes. doesn't
happen though if the oil has to run up hill to get there in the first place.

Thus spake jim beam > :

>Dillon Pyron wrote:
>> Thus spake jim beam > :
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> What's the latest Honda words on the amount of oil burn in these
>>>> engines? Because some owners of 2007 Toyotas posted that their manuals
>>>> say 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.
>>> it's about the same for honda.
>>
>> Toyota/Lexus V6s got a knock last year for reliability, but I don't
>> think that had much to do with burning oil.
>>
>>>
>>>> Many of the newer Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 engines have excessive
>>> "excessive"??? who says they're "excessive"? "excessive" for when the
>>> piston is hot and thermally expanded more than the iron liner it's
>>> sitting in? or "excessive" for some doofus on the interweb that hasn't
>>> measured anything, doesn't know specs, and doesn't know as much as the
>>> honda or toyota engineers on this subject and is simply guessing because
>>> he doesn't know the big picture and feels compelled to tap his keyboard?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> piston-
>>>> bore clearances they piston-slap when cold
>>> many high performance engines do that. to figure out why, check out the
>>> temperature at which the piston is designed to operate, then the thermal
>>> expansion coefficient of that aluminum alloy, then compare that with the
>>> bore dimensions at the [very different] operating temperature of the
>>> iron liners in which it sits.
>>
>> F1 engines don't even have rings.
>
>i think you want to re-check your facts there dillon.

Ferrari says they don't use any. Honda didn't in 2007, don't know
about last year.

So I was generalizing what might really be a specialized statement.
Sorry for the confusion.
--
- dillon I am not invalid

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

| >> 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.
Which type of oil ? Some evaporate > others : the smellier when
hot the more evaporative. 1.1 US quart = 1.034 litre for 965.5
km is ridiculous.
My F20A ( 91,000 km ) between 5000 km ( short distance town
use in warm climate ) mineral oil changes, needed <50ml top up
even when engine ( original design, before I ended its heat
recycled via air intake & EGR ) got very hot.

"TE Chea" > wrote in :

>| >> 1.1 qt of oil burn per 600 miles can be considered normal.
> Which type of oil ? Some evaporate > others : the smellier when
> hot the more evaporative. 1.1 US quart = 1.034 litre for 965.5
> km is ridiculous.
> My F20A ( 91,000 km ) between 5000 km ( short distance town
> use in warm climate ) mineral oil changes, needed <50ml top up



50mL? That's less than two ounces, or about the contents of a shot glass.

How on earth are you managing to reliably measure a two ounce drop on a
dipstick that's marked for 34oz? I calculate this to be 0.7mm movement
(about 1/32") on the stick, which is impossible to identify with any
certainty at all.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/