In-the-tank fuel pumps cause death and destruction

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 03:56:59 GMT, Ray > wrote:

>Bill Putney wrote:
>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if
>>>>> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what
>>>>> exactly occupies the remaining space?
>>
>>
>>>> If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump
>>>> (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100%
>>>> full of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one
>>>> ingredient for fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh?
>>>>
>>>> To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is
>>>> inside the pump with only liquid fuel).
>>
>
>wouldn't the arcing be only where the actual motor assembly would be?
>could this not be a sealed unit? Would you even want gas in there? I
>would think gas does a poor job of lubrication - you'd have some kind of
>grease in the actual motor assembly, wouldn't you?
>

The intank fuel pumps I've worked on are totally wet, with fuel
flowing right through the motor.

>the gears that pump the gasoline won't be arcing...

And none of the fuel pumps I've worked on were gear pumps.
>
>fwiw, my fish tank pump uses a sealed pump assy with a magnetic drive
>assembly - no chance of water touching the electrical parts.
>
>Ray

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 03:56:59 GMT, Ray > wrote:

>Bill Putney wrote:
>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>> I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if
>>>>> I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what
>>>>> exactly occupies the remaining space?
>>
>>
>>>> If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump
>>>> (where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100%
>>>> full of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one
>>>> ingredient for fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh?
>>>>
>>>> To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is
>>>> inside the pump with only liquid fuel).
>>
>
>wouldn't the arcing be only where the actual motor assembly would be?
>could this not be a sealed unit? Would you even want gas in there? I
>would think gas does a poor job of lubrication - you'd have some kind of
>grease in the actual motor assembly, wouldn't you?
>

The intank fuel pumps I've worked on are totally wet, with fuel
flowing right through the motor.

>the gears that pump the gasoline won't be arcing...

And none of the fuel pumps I've worked on were gear pumps.
>
>fwiw, my fish tank pump uses a sealed pump assy with a magnetic drive
>assembly - no chance of water touching the electrical parts.
>
>Ray

"shiden_kai" > wrote in message
news:XyWgd.72729$Pl.62327@pd7tw1no...

> really a different topic and has nothing to do with what lock
> washers are trying to achieve.
>

Lock washers don't always work either. If I am bolting something
that needs to stay bolted I'll use a lock nut with a deformed thread
section, or take a standard nut and turn it into a locknut with a deformed
section with a hammer and punch.

Ted

"shiden_kai" > wrote in message
news:XyWgd.72729$Pl.62327@pd7tw1no...

> really a different topic and has nothing to do with what lock
> washers are trying to achieve.
>

Lock washers don't always work either. If I am bolting something
that needs to stay bolted I'll use a lock nut with a deformed thread
section, or take a standard nut and turn it into a locknut with a deformed
section with a hammer and punch.

Ted

Most of the LHS's pump are removed thru the trunk without disassembling the
tank, i think the newer ones have the drain on the tanks, but not sure. and
we were talking about Trucks, i was posting on that...
"Thomas Moats" > wrote in message
...
>
> "maxpower" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When i worked at the dodge dealer, the way i removed the intank fuel
pumps
> > was not to drop the tank but raise the bed, the tank can be completly
full
> > and never dropped....remove the 6 15mm. bolts...leave the two back ones
in
> > but loosen them the ground strap and the three screws attaching the
fuel
> > neck to the body comes off, lower the truck with a jack stand under the
bed
> > , the bed goes up while the truck comes down, looks like a dump truck
> > dropping a load when it is up
> > Glenn Beasley
> > Chrysler Tech
>
> Yup, works great with a truck. Now do that on a mini-van. Try that on a
> LHS.........
>
> > "Thomas Moats" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:54:06 -0400, "Al Smith" >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Wait a minute. Maybe there are shortcuts in some cases - and I
have
> > only
> > > > >done
> > > > >it once - but every fuel pump replacement I have heard about
> > > > >involves dropping the tank.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > None of the intank fuel pumps used on carbureted Toyota vehicles
> > > > required removal of the tank to replace. All had screwed on access
> > > > covers either in the trunk or floor under the rear seat to access
the
> > > > fuel sender.fuel pickup/fuel pump.. Many other vehicles were built
the
> > > > same.
> > > >
> > > > Many of today's vehicles DO require dropping the tank - and MANY of
> > > > those tanks are plastic, not steel.. Many of them have quick
> > > > disconnects to disconnect the fuel lines, and if less than 1/4 full
> > > > pose a very limitted danger of spillage when removing. They are also
> > > > usually relatively simple to drain with a proper fuel transfer pump,
> > > > either electrical, air powered, or manual.
> > > >
> > > > Most fuel injected vehicles can be easily drained from under the
hood
> > > > by connecting the transfer pump to the service valve on the fuel
rail
> > > > - without getting ANY fuel or fuel vapours into the shop, and with
NO
> > > > danger of fire.
> > >
> > > If you have about a week to wait for the fuel to tranfer........
> > >
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Most of the LHS's pump are removed thru the trunk without disassembling the
tank, i think the newer ones have the drain on the tanks, but not sure. and
we were talking about Trucks, i was posting on that...
"Thomas Moats" > wrote in message
...
>
> "maxpower" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When i worked at the dodge dealer, the way i removed the intank fuel
pumps
> > was not to drop the tank but raise the bed, the tank can be completly
full
> > and never dropped....remove the 6 15mm. bolts...leave the two back ones
in
> > but loosen them the ground strap and the three screws attaching the
fuel
> > neck to the body comes off, lower the truck with a jack stand under the
bed
> > , the bed goes up while the truck comes down, looks like a dump truck
> > dropping a load when it is up
> > Glenn Beasley
> > Chrysler Tech
>
> Yup, works great with a truck. Now do that on a mini-van. Try that on a
> LHS.........
>
> > "Thomas Moats" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:54:06 -0400, "Al Smith" >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Wait a minute. Maybe there are shortcuts in some cases - and I
have
> > only
> > > > >done
> > > > >it once - but every fuel pump replacement I have heard about
> > > > >involves dropping the tank.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > None of the intank fuel pumps used on carbureted Toyota vehicles
> > > > required removal of the tank to replace. All had screwed on access
> > > > covers either in the trunk or floor under the rear seat to access
the
> > > > fuel sender.fuel pickup/fuel pump.. Many other vehicles were built
the
> > > > same.
> > > >
> > > > Many of today's vehicles DO require dropping the tank - and MANY of
> > > > those tanks are plastic, not steel.. Many of them have quick
> > > > disconnects to disconnect the fuel lines, and if less than 1/4 full
> > > > pose a very limitted danger of spillage when removing. They are also
> > > > usually relatively simple to drain with a proper fuel transfer pump,
> > > > either electrical, air powered, or manual.
> > > >
> > > > Most fuel injected vehicles can be easily drained from under the
hood
> > > > by connecting the transfer pump to the service valve on the fuel
rail
> > > > - without getting ANY fuel or fuel vapours into the shop, and with
NO
> > > > danger of fire.
> > >
> > > If you have about a week to wait for the fuel to tranfer........
> > >
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> "shiden_kai" > wrote in message
> news:XyWgd.72729$Pl.62327@pd7tw1no...
>
>
>>really a different topic and has nothing to do with what lock
>>washers are trying to achieve.
>>
>
>
> Lock washers don't always work either. If I am bolting something
> that needs to stay bolted I'll use a lock nut with a deformed thread
> section, or take a standard nut and turn it into a locknut with a deformed
> section with a hammer and punch.
>
> Ted
>
>

If you REALLY want it to stay put, do as the aviation folks do and drill
and safety wire it.


Matt

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> "shiden_kai" > wrote in message
> news:XyWgd.72729$Pl.62327@pd7tw1no...
>
>
>>really a different topic and has nothing to do with what lock
>>washers are trying to achieve.
>>
>
>
> Lock washers don't always work either. If I am bolting something
> that needs to stay bolted I'll use a lock nut with a deformed thread
> section, or take a standard nut and turn it into a locknut with a deformed
> section with a hammer and punch.
>
> Ted
>
>

If you REALLY want it to stay put, do as the aviation folks do and drill
and safety wire it.


Matt

WAAAAAAAAA!!!!! WAAAAAAA!!!!
STUpid cry babies!



"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News


Thursday, October 28, 2004 -


Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

WAAAAAAAAA!!!!! WAAAAAAA!!!!
STUpid cry babies!



"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News


Thursday, October 28, 2004 -


Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.