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The real danger of allowing GM and Ford to go bankrupt . . .



 
 
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  #51  
Old June 16th 05, 05:49 AM
Dave Lister
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DTJ > wrote in news:e4r1b1dvgu56h8qh4aokiru3n0maoe4g5n@
4ax.com:

> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:06:01 -0500,
> (Matthew Russotto) wrote:
>
>>>> 2) An efficient method of transport
>>>
>>>That already exists for other gases including propane.

>>
>>That is true, but those methods do not work well for hydrogen.
>>Hydrogen leaks from everything, and causes metals to become brittle.

>
> I have to believe that in spite of the fact that 90% of people drive
> like morons, our ingenuity could come up with a method to transport
> hydrogen if there were a potential profit.


You need to say something other than "our ingenuity", Nazi, as it is pretty
clear that you are barely bright enough to pick your nose.

--
Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick

Guantanamo: The Gulag of Our Time

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  #52  
Old June 16th 05, 06:19 AM
Bernard Farquart
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"Dave Lister" > wrote in message
. 6...

>
> You need to say something other than "our ingenuity", Nazi, as it is
> pretty
> clear that you are barely bright enough to pick your nose.
>


"loon loon loon, nazi nazi nazi"

you sure are getting boring.



  #54  
Old June 16th 05, 06:30 AM
Bernard Farquart
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"Dave Lister" > wrote in message
. 6...

>stamps his widdle foot


That's what I thought.




  #55  
Old June 16th 05, 06:34 AM
Dave Lister
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"Bernard Farquart" > wrote in
:

> I thought...


That was your first mistake, pinhead..


--
Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick

Guantanamo: The Gulag of Our Time

  #56  
Old June 16th 05, 09:04 AM
Alan Baker
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In article >,
Dave Lister > wrote:

> Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker-
> :
>
> > In article > ,
> > Dave Lister > wrote:
> >
> >> Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker-
> >>
:
> >>
> >> > In article > ,
> >> > Dave Lister > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Alan Baker > wrote in
> >> >> :
> >> >>
> >> >> > In article > ,
> >> >> > Dave Lister > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
(Matthew Russotto) wrote in
> >> >> >> :
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Let's see, in that category, we need
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > 1) An efficient method of hydrogen production (not from

> fossil
> >> >> >> > fuels)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Why? Coal would be a good short term source for the energy

> needed.
> >> >> >> Solar, nukes, wind and others longer term.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > 2) An efficient method of transport
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That already exists for other gases including propane.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > 3) Several efficient methods of storage (large scale and

> small
> >> >> >> > scale)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Already there.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > 4) An efficient and pollution-free means of using the

> hydrogen
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hydrogen by definition is pollution free at the users end.

> Clearly
> >> >> >> the production pollution depends on where we get the energy.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, it's not. But used as fuel for a fuel cell, it is.
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, it is if burned properly.
> >> >
> >> > Describe this proper burning which doesn't produce any NOx...
> >>
> >>
http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=182
> >
> > Apparently you didn't read it:
> >
> > "'The formation of NOx also occurs when you burn gasoline,' explains
> > Heffel. 'But in the case of hydrogen we have a wide flammability range
> > and, therefore, the engine can be tuned to have a lower combustion
> > temperature. This in turn results in lower NOx emissions.'"
> >
> > "Lower NOx emissions", not *no* NOx emissions.

>
> Apparently you didn't read it, where it says that the emissions can be
> reduced to the normal background level.


All they've actually demonstrated is lower emissions. They *claim* to be
able to reduce NOx to the levels already present in the air anyway, but
their logic seems rather flawed...

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
  #57  
Old June 16th 05, 04:31 PM
Matthew Russotto
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In article > ,
Dave Lister > wrote:
>"fbloogyudsr" > wrote in news:11b0t9to28meu75
:
>
>> "Alan Baker" > wrote
>>> "'The formation of NOx also occurs when you burn gasoline,' explains
>>> Heffel. 'But in the case of hydrogen we have a wide flammability range
>>> and, therefore, the engine can be tuned to have a lower combustion
>>> temperature. This in turn results in lower NOx emissions.'"

>>
>> Lower combustion temp == lower efficiency. Sorry, you lose.

>
>"Lose"? I dont think so. These problems are minor.


If by "minor" you mean "insurmountable". It's simple thermodynamics
that reducing combustion temperature reduces efficiency.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
  #58  
Old June 16th 05, 04:39 PM
Dave Lister
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Posts: n/a
Default

Alan Baker > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Dave Lister > wrote:
>
>> Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker-
>> :
>>
>> > In article > ,
>> > Dave Lister > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Alan Baker > wrote in news:alangbaker-
>> >>
:
>> >>
>> >> > In article > ,
>> >> > Dave Lister > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Alan Baker > wrote in
>> >> >> :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > In article > ,
>> >> >> > Dave Lister > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
(Matthew Russotto) wrote in
>> >> >> >> :
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Let's see, in that category, we need
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > 1) An efficient method of hydrogen production (not from

>> fossil
>> >> >> >> > fuels)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Why? Coal would be a good short term source for the energy

>> needed.
>> >> >> >> Solar, nukes, wind and others longer term.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > 2) An efficient method of transport
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> That already exists for other gases including propane.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > 3) Several efficient methods of storage (large scale and

>> small
>> >> >> >> > scale)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Already there.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > 4) An efficient and pollution-free means of using the

>> hydrogen
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hydrogen by definition is pollution free at the users end.

>> Clearly
>> >> >> >> the production pollution depends on where we get the energy.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > No, it's not. But used as fuel for a fuel cell, it is.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes, it is if burned properly.
>> >> >
>> >> > Describe this proper burning which doesn't produce any NOx...
>> >>
>> >>
http://www.newsroom.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=182
>> >
>> > Apparently you didn't read it:
>> >
>> > "'The formation of NOx also occurs when you burn gasoline,'
>> > explains Heffel. 'But in the case of hydrogen we have a wide
>> > flammability range and, therefore, the engine can be tuned to have
>> > a lower combustion temperature. This in turn results in lower NOx
>> > emissions.'"
>> >
>> > "Lower NOx emissions", not *no* NOx emissions.

>>
>> Apparently you didn't read it, where it says that the emissions can
>> be reduced to the normal background level.

>
> All they've actually demonstrated is lower emissions. They *claim* to
> be able to reduce NOx to the levels already present in the air anyway,
> but their logic seems rather flawed...


I'm sure you know more than they do.

--
Republican Health Plan: Don't Get Sick

Guantanamo: The Gulag of Our Time

 




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