Some details of the 2AZ-FE engine

EdV wrote:
> On Jul 15, 10:58 pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
>> Built_Well wrote:
>>> C. E. White wrote:
>>>> EdV wrote:
>>>>> Is the 2AZ-FE considered a direct injectin engine?
>>>> No
>>> ============= The 2AZ-FE is a direct injection engine. It does
>>> not use a mechanical distributor, and the engine does use a
>>> crankshaft sensor and a camshaft sensor, among other things.
>> "direct injection" typically refers to a very high pressure fuel
>> injection system that injects fuel directly into the combustion
>> chamber rather than into the intake runner or a throttle body.
>>
> So its like a turbo charger?

Nope.

> how is the pressure of the fuel increased?

Straight out of the fuel pump.

> the pressure is increased when the liquid fuel is already in vapor
> stage right?

No, Liquid fuel gets injected directly into the cylinder. Unlike the
common port injection systems where the fuel gets injected into the
intake runner just behind the intake valve.

> Isn't it necessary to cool down the temperature of the high pressure
> vapor fuel before directly injecting them into the combustion chamber?

No vapor injected on any modern fuel injection system. Even the
turbocharged systems only cool the air after it goes through the turbo.
None of them inject fuel until it hits the intake runner.

like the purpose of an intercooler for a turbo system. thanks!

The intercooler only cools the air itself. Nothing more.

--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

Life is not like a box of chocolates
it's more like a jar of jalapenos-
what you do today could burn your ass tomorrow!

On Jul 16, 12:43*pm, EdV > wrote:
> On Jul 15, 11:57 pm, wrote:> Hee hee hee. 2AZFE "an advanced powerplant?" that's a good one.
> > Checkout the Audi FSI 2.0T for an advanced design with a flat torque
> > curve from 2000-5000 RPMs.
>
> IIRC, The flat torque is because of the CVT transmission design and
> not the engine. I could be wrong.
> .

The old 1.8T had an essentially flat torque curve over the same rev
range and was only available with conventional transmissions. I
wasn't aware that Audi had a CVT yet, although I have missed stuff
before. I thought their new high end transmission was the dual-clutch
deal?

nate

On Jul 16, 12:38*pm, EdV > wrote:
> On Jul 15, 10:58 pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Built_Well wrote:
> > > C. E. White wrote:
>
> > >> *EdV wrote:
>
> > >>> Is the 2AZ-FE considered a direct injectin engine?
>
> > >>No
>
> > > =============
>
> > > The 2AZ-FE is a direct injection engine. *It does not
> > > use a mechanical distributor, and the engine does
> > > use a crankshaft sensor and a camshaft sensor, among
> > > other things.
>
> > "direct injection" typically refers to a very high pressure fuel
> > injection system that injects fuel directly into the combustion chamber
> > rather than into the intake runner or a throttle body.
>
> So its like a turbo charger? how is the pressure of the fuel
> increased? and the pressure is increased when the liquid fuel is
> already in vapor stage right? Isn't it necessary to cool down the
> temperature of the high pressure vapor fuel before directly injecting
> them into the combustion chamber.. like the purpose of an intercooler
> for a turbo system. thanks!- Hide quoted text -

Think Diesel engine. Bigass mechanical pump driven by the engine.
No, it doesn't pressurize the intake air, but the fuel has to be
pressurized to significantly more than the normal 50-100 PSI because
it's being sprayed into the compressed air in the chamber rather than
into the intake, where it's spraying into air that's at atmospheric
(or less, under part throttle - or slightly more, in a turbo/
supercharged engine on boost) pressure.

nate

On Jul 16, 9:04*am, N8N > wrote:
> On Jul 16, 2:34*am, Built_Well > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Nate Nagel wrote:
> > > Built_Well wrote:
> > > > C. E. White wrote:
>
> > > >> *EdV wrote:
>
> > > >>> Is the 2AZ-FE considered a direct injectin engine?
>
> > > >>No
>
> > > > =============
>
> > > > The 2AZ-FE is a direct injection engine. *It does not
> > > > use a mechanical distributor, and the engine does
> > > > use a crankshaft sensor and a camshaft sensor, among
> > > > other things.
>
> > > "direct injection" typically refers to a very high pressure fuel
> > > injection system that injects fuel directly into the combustion chamber
> > > rather than into the intake runner or a throttle body.
>
> > > What you are describing is a "distributorless ignition."
>
> > > nate
>
> > ============================================
>
> > Very good information. *I enjoyed reading it, and you're
> > right that the Camry does not inject fuel into the combustion
> > chamber but into the "antechamber" in the cylinder head that
> > comes just before the valve. *That's what the manual's diagram
> > seems to show anyway.
>
> > But the 2AZ-FE /is/ a Direct Injection System. *Here's a quote
> > from the Camry's service and repair manual on Page EG-57:
>
> > "A DIS (Direct Ignition System) has been adopted. The DIS improves
> > the ignition timing accuracy, reduces high-voltage loss, and
> > enhances the overall reliability of the ignition system by
> > eliminating the distributor. *The DIS in this engine is an
> > independent ignition system which has one ignition coil (with
> > igniter) for each cylinder."
>
> > Also, the book "Auto Upkeep" says, "Some manufacturers call the
> > distributor-less ignition system a direct ignition system."
>
> > Maybe there are two sides with an honest difference of opinion?
> > Sorta like how API Group III oils are considered synthetic in
> > the U.S.A., but not in Europe.
>
> > However, the book says there are 3 types of ignition systems:
>
> > Conventional, Electronic, and Distributor-less.
>
> > The web site ProCarCare.com doesn't mention firing into the
> > combustion chamber as a pre-requisite for D.I.S.
>
> > Here's a quote:
>
> > The Direct Ignition System (DIS) uses either a magnetic crankshaft
> > sensor, camshaft position sensor, or both, to determine crankshaft
> > position and engine speed. *This signal is sent to the ignition
> > control module or engine control module which then energizes the
> > appropriate coil.
>
> > You obviously know a whole lot more about cars than I do, but the
> > 2AZ-FE does seem to be a Direct Ignition System.
>
> > Here's a link to the ProCarCare site with the info:
>
> >http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/r...lopedia/icar_r...
>
> > Britannica Online seems to agree:
>
> > direct-ignition system, or distributor-less ignition system
> > (engineering):
>
> > * description and use:
>
> > * Many automobile engines now use a distributor-less ignition
> > system, or direct-ignition system, in which a high-voltage pulse
> > is directly applied to coils that sit on top of the spark plugs
> > (known as coil-on-plug). The major components of these systems
> > are a coil pack, an ignition module, a crankshaft reluctor ring,
> > a magnetic sensor, and an electronic control module.
>
> > From Wikipedia's entry on Ignition System:
>
> > Other systems dispense with the distributor and coil and use
> > special spark plugs which each contain their own coil
> > (Direct Ignition). This means high voltages are not routed all
> > over the engine, but are instead created at the point at which
> > they are needed. Such designs offer potentially much greater
> > reliability than conventional arrangements.
>
> > A site devoted to the Honda Insight says this:
>
> > The Insight engine employs a direct ignition system similar to
> > those used on the Honda S2000 and the 1999 Odyssey. Separate
> > ignition coils for each cylinder are located directly above
> > the spark plugs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Your original post said "direct INJECTION" not "direct IGNITION."
> I've never heard of a distributorless ignition called a "direct
> ignition" although I guess it kind of makes sense for a coil-on-plug
> type setup. *Now direct INJECTION refers to something completely
> different, as I described in my post. *Generally used on Diesel
> engines although I have heard that some mfgrs. have or will introduce
> it on gas engines as well.
>
> nate

here's more reading for you to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

that article seems to imply that the throttle plate is done away with;
I'm not certain that that is done in all implementations, but it's
certainly possible. Basically the engine would look like a Diesel
engine, but it would run on gasoline and have spark plugs.

nate

Steve W. wrote:
> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:14:01 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
>>
>>> (and more than a couple Monzas as well).
>>
>>
>>
>> Friend of mine had a Monza..the one with the 305!!!
>> HOLY CRAP!!!! And because of Federal law, it only had an 85 MPH speedo!
>>
>>
>
> My last Monza had a slightly warm 327 in it... It also had a 120 MPH
> speedo and could BURY it at will!!!!
>
> I just got rid of my last H body last week. I'll probably regret it. It
> was an Olds Starfire GT. It started life as a 4 speed 231 V6 car. It
> left here with a turbocharged 231 from a GNX in it. Still a 4 speed but
> with a full frame kit. It was a very fun car to drive but I need to
> clear out some of the toys.
>

That sounds like a fun ride, even if it makes nasty blatty V-6 noises.
I gotta ask, what are your other toys if that one isn't fun enough to
make the cut?

nate

(gonna be driving my '55 soon, I swear... I'm going through V-8 withdrawal)

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"N8N" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 16, 12:38 pm, EdV > wrote:

Think Diesel engine. Bigass mechanical pump driven by the engine.
No, it doesn't pressurize the intake air, but the fuel has to be
pressurized to significantly more than the normal 50-100 PSI because
it's being sprayed into the compressed air in the chamber rather than
into the intake, where it's spraying into air that's at atmospheric
(or less, under part throttle - or slightly more, in a turbo/
supercharged engine on boost) pressure.

As might be expected wikkipedia has a description - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection . Other interesting
references:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...10_best_h.html
http://www.brunel.ac.uk/about/acad/s...g/recent/dige/

Ed

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Built_Well
> wrote:

>Nate Nagel wrote:
>> Built_Well wrote:
>> > C. E. White wrote:
>> >
>> >> EdV wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Is the 2AZ-FE considered a direct injectin engine?
>> >>
>> >>No
>> >
>> > =============
>> >
>> > The 2AZ-FE is a direct injection engine. It does not
>> > use a mechanical distributor, and the engine does
>> > use a crankshaft sensor and a camshaft sensor, among
>> > other things.
>>
>> "direct injection" typically refers to a very high pressure fuel
>> injection system that injects fuel directly into the combustion chamber
>> rather than into the intake runner or a throttle body.
>>
>> What you are describing is a "distributorless ignition."
>>
>> nate
>============================================
>
>Very good information. I enjoyed reading it, and you're
>right that the Camry does not inject fuel into the combustion
>chamber but into the "antechamber" in the cylinder head that
>comes just before the valve. That's what the manual's diagram
>seems to show anyway.
>
>But the 2AZ-FE /is/ a Direct Injection System. Here's a quote
>from the Camry's service and repair manual on Page EG-57:

No, it's not.
Direct injection is just now starting to be used in some European
cars. They're need for fuel efficiency is a lot higher.
>
>"A DIS (Direct Ignition System) has been adopted. The DIS improves
>the ignition timing accuracy, reduces high-voltage loss, and
>enhances the overall reliability of the ignition system by
>eliminating the distributor. The DIS in this engine is an
>independent ignition system which has one ignition coil (with
>igniter) for each cylinder."

Direct ignition is pretty much common on any car these days.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT), EdV >
wrote:

>On Jul 15, 11:57 pm, wrote:
>> Hee hee hee. 2AZFE "an advanced powerplant?" that's a good one.
>> Checkout the Audi FSI 2.0T for an advanced design with a flat torque
>> curve from 2000-5000 RPMs.
>>
>IIRC, The flat torque is because of the CVT transmission design and
>not the engine. I could be wrong.
>.

A transmission has nothing to do with torque output of an engine.
A CVT is able to keep the rpms at max torque at all times while
accelerating.

RT wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:34:01 -0700 (PDT), Built_Well
> > wrote:
>
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> Built_Well wrote:
>>>> C. E. White wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> EdV wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the 2AZ-FE considered a direct injectin engine?
>>>>> No
>>>> =============
>>>>
>>>> The 2AZ-FE is a direct injection engine. It does not
>>>> use a mechanical distributor, and the engine does
>>>> use a crankshaft sensor and a camshaft sensor, among
>>>> other things.
>>> "direct injection" typically refers to a very high pressure fuel
>>> injection system that injects fuel directly into the combustion chamber
>>> rather than into the intake runner or a throttle body.
>>>
>>> What you are describing is a "distributorless ignition."
>>>
>>> nate
>> ============================================
>>
>> Very good information. I enjoyed reading it, and you're
>> right that the Camry does not inject fuel into the combustion
>> chamber but into the "antechamber" in the cylinder head that
>> comes just before the valve. That's what the manual's diagram
>> seems to show anyway.
>>
>> But the 2AZ-FE /is/ a Direct Injection System. Here's a quote
>>from the Camry's service and repair manual on Page EG-57:
>
> No, it's not.

> Direct injection is just now starting to be used in some European
> cars. They're need for fuel efficiency is a lot higher.
It is available in the US in the Mazdaspeed 3, Mazdaspeed 6 and the
Mazda CX7.

RT wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT), EdV >
> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 15, 11:57 pm, wrote:
>>> Hee hee hee. 2AZFE "an advanced powerplant?" that's a good one.
>>> Checkout the Audi FSI 2.0T for an advanced design with a flat torque
>>> curve from 2000-5000 RPMs.
>>>
>> IIRC, The flat torque is because of the CVT transmission design and
>> not the engine. I could be wrong.
>> .
>
> A transmission has nothing to do with torque output of an engine.
> A CVT is able to keep the rpms at max torque at all times while
> accelerating.
Max HP speed will give best acceleration.