High Gas Prices Fuel an Octane Rebellion

August 6, 2005
Prices Fuel a Rebellion
Drivers Tired of Paying More for Premium Gasoline Switch to Regular
By Margaret Webb Pressler
Washington Post Staff Writer

For some people, it's hitting the big five-oh that really hurts -- that
is, dropping $50 on a tank of gas. For others, it's just that
relentless upward creep in prices that gets their attention.

Whatever the trigger, drivers pulling up to the pump in vehicles that
ostensibly require high-grade gas are wondering if they really need the
more expensive fuel or whether it's okay just to fill it up with
regular. As gas prices soar, car owners increasingly are going for the
cheaper stuff -- no matter how fancy their wheels. And station owners
and oil companies are seeing the impact: Sales of premium and mid-grade
gasoline are tumbling.

It's an age-old response, industry experts say, for drivers to switch
from pricey, higher-octane formulations of gas to cheaper alternatives
whenever gasoline prices rise substantially. Now, with prices stuck
stubbornly high, oil experts wonder whether high-grade gas will go the
way of the Studebaker.

"I foresee no serious decline in prices anytime soon, so the question
is, will consumers' buying habits change permanently if the higher
prices stay as they are," said Daniel F. Gilligan, president of the
Petroleum Marketers Association, which represents independent filling
stations. "Will it be more difficult to attract consumers back to the
higher-octane fuels? I don't know."

Automotive experts say using regular gas in most vehicles does no
damage and makes no discernible difference in performance. Cars made in
the past 15 years have such highly refined computer controls that the
engine will adjust to the grade of octane in the gasoline, even in cars
sold as requiring premium gasoline. Some drivers -- in some cars under
some driving conditions -- may notice a drop in horsepower, but for
most people behind the wheel, it wouldn't be enough to notice, the
experts say.

"It's not going to hurt anything," said Peter Gregori, service manager
for EuroMotorcars, a Mercedes-Benz dealer in Bethesda. In fact, Gregori
has been using regular gas in one of his own Mercedes cars for two
years, and "it's perfect," he said -- even though Mercedes-Benz says
owners should use only premium.

"I get better mileage with the regular than I do with the high-test, in
this particular model that I have," Gregori said. Among cars that come
in for service, Gregori said, he can't tell which have been sipping
premium.

Apparently, drivers are figuring this out.

Nationally, sales of premium gasoline fell 5.6 percent this year
through May, the latest data available, according to the Energy
Information Administration, while overall regular gas sales were up 4.7
percent.

Premium sales were down almost 9 percent in Virginia and 5.5 percent in
Maryland.

In the District, premium sales were down 28 percent, an especially
steep decline that may be overstated because of a fluctuation in
suppliers reporting for such a small market, EIA economists said. But
the relationship between regular gasoline, which fell 22.5 percent, and
premium sales is accurate, said economist Michael Burdette.

"Volume-wise, we're definitely selling less," Chris Wangkang, manager
of a Shell station in Rockville, said of the station's premium V-Power
gasoline. As he spoke, a young woman in a black BMW -- another carmaker
that recommends premium fuel -- pulled away from the pump outside.

"What did she get?" Wangkang asked his cashier, who checked her
receipt.

"Regular," he replied.

The first drivers to defect from premium, station managers say, are
those whose cars don't specify a need for premium gasoline but who were
using it anyway, thinking it might help -- even though most experts say
it won't. But even owners of cars that purport to require high-test --
complete with a warning on the gas cap, "Premium Fuel Only" -- also are
trading down.

David Shapiro said he and his wife switched to regular independently of
each other about two weeks ago. It was a spur-of-the-moment decision
for the tax lawyer with the D.C. office of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

"I never really knew if it made a difference, and I figured it was time
to try and see if my car really works fine," he said of his Volvo,
which recommends premium fuel. "It's like two bucks a tank difference,
so it's like a free gallon. And it hasn't made a bit of difference in
how the car drives."

Although the numbers are slightly different in some states, premium
fuel typically has an octane rating of 91 while regular fuel's rating
is 87. Octane controls the fuel-air mixture in an engine to keep it
from igniting before it's supposed to, which can cause reduced power
and harmful knocking. But in all modern cars, computers adjust the
timing of the engine's compression so that "pre-ignition" never
happens, said Cole Quinnell, a spokesman for Chrysler Group
Engineering.

"It does not hurt the engine -- sensors automatically readjust the
engine basically for that reason, to save itself," he said.

Chrysler recommends 91-octane fuel for its high-performance and
turbocharged automobiles, such as the SRT models, "but all our products
will run on 87 or 89," Quinnell said. Any loss in performance would
come when an engine is pushing to its maximum power and speed, he said,
so "if an average driver got into one of our SRT vehicles, they
wouldn't notice any change."

Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Edmunds.com, an automotive information
and research firm, said carmakers perpetuate the premium fuel
requirement because engines designed for that gas can achieve greater
performance when powered by the high-grade fuel.

"Manufacturers want to be able to quote high horsepower numbers,"
Brauer said. "If it's not run on premium, it probably won't ever hurt
the car. It probably won't ever be noticed by most drivers. But they
can still have their claimed horsepower for their brochures."

Oil refiners make the most money from selling higher-grade gasoline
because the higher cost to produce it is more than made up by the added
charge to customers, said Fadel Gheit, an oil analyst at Oppenheimer &
Co. in New York. Gas stations also benefit from higher margins on
premium fuel.

"It's to everybody's advantage to push the high-grade," Gheit said.

For their part, the oil companies say they're just providing the fuel
that carmakers demand. "We're guided by what the car manufacturers say
and what the octane requirement would be, so our responsibility is to
fill the need and provide what the consumer would require for their
cars to work most efficiently," said Gerald T. Davis, a spokesman for
Sunoco. Asked if premium gasoline is more profitable for the oil
company, Davis would say only, "Our gasoline is priced competitively
and fairly."

On 5 Aug 2005 23:32:12 -0700
"MrPepper11" > wrote:

> August 6, 2005
> Prices Fuel a Rebellion
> Drivers Tired of Paying More for Premium Gasoline Switch to Regular
> By Margaret Webb Pressler
> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
> For some people, it's hitting the big five-oh that really hurts -- that
> is, dropping $50 on a tank of gas. For others, it's just that
> relentless upward creep in prices that gets their attention.
>
>


Suggested related reading list in regards to the oil crisis:

http://energybulletin.net/834.html

http://energybulletin.net/1342.html

http://energybulletin.net/1024.html

http://energybulletin.net/1171.html

http://energybulletin.net/1303.html

http://energybulletin.net/1246.html


http://energybulletin.net/1756.html

http://energybulletin.net/1981.html

http://energybulletin.net/2303.html

http://energybulletin.net/2291.html

http://energybulletin.net/2378.html

http://energybulletin.net/1788.html

http://energybulletin.net/2520.html

http://energybulletin.net/2529.html

http://survivingpeakoil.com/articles.php

http://energybulletin.net/2502.html

http://energybulletin.net/3140.html

http://energybulletin.net/3257.html

http://energybulletin.net/3636.html

http://energybulletin.net/3600.html

http://energybulletin.net/5140.html

http://energybulletin.net/3757.html

(Iran and Oil)
http://energybulletin.net/4216.html
http://energybulletin.net/4634.html
http://energybulletin.net/5277.html

http://energybulletin.net/4200.html

China and the Final War for Resources
http://energybulletin.net/4301.html

http://energybulletin.net/4273.html

http://energybulletin.net/4856.html

http://energybulletin.net/5104.html

http://energybulletin.net/5075.html

http://energybulletin.net/5060.html

http://energybulletin.net/6432.html

MrPepper11 wrote:
> August 6, 2005
> Prices Fuel a Rebellion
> Drivers Tired of Paying More for Premium Gasoline Switch to Regular
> By Margaret Webb Pressler
> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
> For some people, it's hitting the big five-oh that really hurts -- that
> is, dropping $50 on a tank of gas. For others, it's just that
> relentless upward creep in prices that gets their attention.
>
> Whatever the trigger, drivers pulling up to the pump in vehicles that
> ostensibly require high-grade gas are wondering if they really need the
> more expensive fuel or whether it's okay just to fill it up with
> regular. As gas prices soar, car owners increasingly are going for the
> cheaper stuff -- no matter how fancy their wheels. And station owners
> and oil companies are seeing the impact: Sales of premium and mid-grade
> gasoline are tumbling.
>

Well, a lot of people have used premium in cars that don't require it...
I don't know how many people I've had to talk out of using premium
because they thought they were "being good to their car" when in reality
they were throwing money down the toilet. That said I still use premium
in my 944 because when the engine gets hot it detonates like crazy

> It's an age-old response, industry experts say, for drivers to switch
> from pricey, higher-octane formulations of gas to cheaper alternatives
> whenever gasoline prices rise substantially. Now, with prices stuck
> stubbornly high, oil experts wonder whether high-grade gas will go the
> way of the Studebaker.

HEY!!!

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Astonishing that the American consumer's response to obscene
gas prices (and obscene oil company profits) is simply to use a
cheaper grade of gas.

We're utterly and completely pussy whipped.

"MrPepper11" > wrote in message ups.com...
> August 6, 2005
> Prices Fuel a Rebellion
> Drivers Tired of Paying More for Premium Gasoline Switch to Regular
> By Margaret Webb Pressler
> Washington Post Staff Writer
>
> For some people, it's hitting the big five-oh that really hurts -- that
> is, dropping $50 on a tank of gas. For others, it's just that
> relentless upward creep in prices that gets their attention.
>
> Whatever the trigger, drivers pulling up to the pump in vehicles that
> ostensibly require high-grade gas are wondering if they really need the
> more expensive fuel or whether it's okay just to fill it up with
> regular. As gas prices soar, car owners increasingly are going for the
> cheaper stuff -- no matter how fancy their wheels. And station owners
> and oil companies are seeing the impact: Sales of premium and mid-grade
> gasoline are tumbling.
>
> It's an age-old response, industry experts say, for drivers to switch
> from pricey, higher-octane formulations of gas to cheaper alternatives
> whenever gasoline prices rise substantially. Now, with prices stuck
> stubbornly high, oil experts wonder whether high-grade gas will go the
> way of the Studebaker.
>
> "I foresee no serious decline in prices anytime soon, so the question
> is, will consumers' buying habits change permanently if the higher
> prices stay as they are," said Daniel F. Gilligan, president of the
> Petroleum Marketers Association, which represents independent filling
> stations. "Will it be more difficult to attract consumers back to the
> higher-octane fuels? I don't know."
>
> Automotive experts say using regular gas in most vehicles does no
> damage and makes no discernible difference in performance. Cars made in
> the past 15 years have such highly refined computer controls that the
> engine will adjust to the grade of octane in the gasoline, even in cars
> sold as requiring premium gasoline. Some drivers -- in some cars under
> some driving conditions -- may notice a drop in horsepower, but for
> most people behind the wheel, it wouldn't be enough to notice, the
> experts say.
>
> "It's not going to hurt anything," said Peter Gregori, service manager
> for EuroMotorcars, a Mercedes-Benz dealer in Bethesda. In fact, Gregori
> has been using regular gas in one of his own Mercedes cars for two
> years, and "it's perfect," he said -- even though Mercedes-Benz says
> owners should use only premium.
>
> "I get better mileage with the regular than I do with the high-test, in
> this particular model that I have," Gregori said. Among cars that come
> in for service, Gregori said, he can't tell which have been sipping
> premium.
>
> Apparently, drivers are figuring this out.
>
> Nationally, sales of premium gasoline fell 5.6 percent this year
> through May, the latest data available, according to the Energy
> Information Administration, while overall regular gas sales were up 4.7
> percent.
>
> Premium sales were down almost 9 percent in Virginia and 5.5 percent in
> Maryland.
>
> In the District, premium sales were down 28 percent, an especially
> steep decline that may be overstated because of a fluctuation in
> suppliers reporting for such a small market, EIA economists said. But
> the relationship between regular gasoline, which fell 22.5 percent, and
> premium sales is accurate, said economist Michael Burdette.
>
> "Volume-wise, we're definitely selling less," Chris Wangkang, manager
> of a Shell station in Rockville, said of the station's premium V-Power
> gasoline. As he spoke, a young woman in a black BMW -- another carmaker
> that recommends premium fuel -- pulled away from the pump outside.
>
> "What did she get?" Wangkang asked his cashier, who checked her
> receipt.
>
> "Regular," he replied.
>
> The first drivers to defect from premium, station managers say, are
> those whose cars don't specify a need for premium gasoline but who were
> using it anyway, thinking it might help -- even though most experts say
> it won't. But even owners of cars that purport to require high-test --
> complete with a warning on the gas cap, "Premium Fuel Only" -- also are
> trading down.
>
> David Shapiro said he and his wife switched to regular independently of
> each other about two weeks ago. It was a spur-of-the-moment decision
> for the tax lawyer with the D.C. office of PricewaterhouseCoopers.
>
> "I never really knew if it made a difference, and I figured it was time
> to try and see if my car really works fine," he said of his Volvo,
> which recommends premium fuel. "It's like two bucks a tank difference,
> so it's like a free gallon. And it hasn't made a bit of difference in
> how the car drives."
>
> Although the numbers are slightly different in some states, premium
> fuel typically has an octane rating of 91 while regular fuel's rating
> is 87. Octane controls the fuel-air mixture in an engine to keep it
> from igniting before it's supposed to, which can cause reduced power
> and harmful knocking. But in all modern cars, computers adjust the
> timing of the engine's compression so that "pre-ignition" never
> happens, said Cole Quinnell, a spokesman for Chrysler Group
> Engineering.
>
> "It does not hurt the engine -- sensors automatically readjust the
> engine basically for that reason, to save itself," he said.
>
> Chrysler recommends 91-octane fuel for its high-performance and
> turbocharged automobiles, such as the SRT models, "but all our products
> will run on 87 or 89," Quinnell said. Any loss in performance would
> come when an engine is pushing to its maximum power and speed, he said,
> so "if an average driver got into one of our SRT vehicles, they
> wouldn't notice any change."
>
> Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Edmunds.com, an automotive information
> and research firm, said carmakers perpetuate the premium fuel
> requirement because engines designed for that gas can achieve greater
> performance when powered by the high-grade fuel.
>
> "Manufacturers want to be able to quote high horsepower numbers,"
> Brauer said. "If it's not run on premium, it probably won't ever hurt
> the car. It probably won't ever be noticed by most drivers. But they
> can still have their claimed horsepower for their brochures."
>
> Oil refiners make the most money from selling higher-grade gasoline
> because the higher cost to produce it is more than made up by the added
> charge to customers, said Fadel Gheit, an oil analyst at Oppenheimer &
> Co. in New York. Gas stations also benefit from higher margins on
> premium fuel.
>
> "It's to everybody's advantage to push the high-grade," Gheit said.
>
> For their part, the oil companies say they're just providing the fuel
> that carmakers demand. "We're guided by what the car manufacturers say
> and what the octane requirement would be, so our responsibility is to
> fill the need and provide what the consumer would require for their
> cars to work most efficiently," said Gerald T. Davis, a spokesman for
> Sunoco. Asked if premium gasoline is more profitable for the oil
> company, Davis would say only, "Our gasoline is priced competitively
> and fairly."
>

In article et>,
"Pete R" > wrote:

> Astonishing that the American consumer's response to obscene
> gas prices (and obscene oil company profits) is simply to use a
> cheaper grade of gas.
>
> We're utterly and completely pussy whipped.

I can't speak for anyone else, but gas was much cheaper eight years ago
when I bought my car. Even so, the prime consideration in shopping for a
new car was safety, and a close second was fuel economy. I have been
buying the cheapest gas available since I have ever owned a car. I don't
understand why people buy those gas guzzlers or those cars that require
high octane gas and then they complain that gas is too expensive. Go
figure. The problem with a lot of people is they have no concept of the
way their consumer decisions impact their wallet, the environment, or
anything else. I have no sympathy for those who have to pay $40 or $50
to fill up their car; they should have thought about that when they were
shopping for a vehicle.

On 5 Aug 2005 23:32:12 -0700, "MrPepper11" > wrote:

>Drivers Tired of Paying More for Premium Gasoline Switch to Regular
>
>For some people, it's hitting the big five-oh that really hurts -- that
>is, dropping $50 on a tank of gas.
>
>Whatever the trigger, drivers pulling up to the pump in vehicles that
>ostensibly require high-grade gas are wondering if they really need the
>more expensive fuel or whether it's okay just to fill it up with
>regular.

Now this is the ultimate stupidity. These people would rather shatter
their pistons with detonation/pre-ignition than take the bus to work.

Of course, here's where the peanut gallery chimes in with that tired
old line about "knock sensors." Get a grip: the powertrain control
module can only retard the timing so much; you can and will experience
detonation/pre-ignition in a high compression engine. Case in point:
the day I bought my 2001 Cobra, the moron lot boy at the dealership
filled it up with regular gas (they don't stock premium, and he was
either too ignorant or too lazy to take it down to the gas station and
fill it up with premium). It knocked and pinged like a diesel truck.

>As gas prices soar, car owners increasingly are going for the
>cheaper stuff -- no matter how fancy their wheels. And station owners
>and oil companies are seeing the impact: Sales of premium and mid-grade
>gasoline are tumbling.

Fine by me - maybe this will bring down the price of premium fuel.

>Automotive experts say using regular gas in most vehicles does no
>damage and makes no discernible difference in performance.

That's midleading. Most vehicles don't say "premium fuel ONLY" on
their gas caps, on their fuel guages, and in their owner's manuals.

>"It's not going to hurt anything," said Peter Gregori, service manager
>for EuroMotorcars, a Mercedes-Benz dealer in Bethesda.

Say, Peter, how much money do you make repairing engines that have
been damaged by detonation? Damage that, of course, is not covered
under the Mercedes-Benz warranty? Maybe you're trying to drum up a
little business, eh?

>"I get better mileage with the regular than I do with the high-test, in
>this particular model that I have," Gregori said. Among cars that come
>in for service, Gregori said, he can't tell which have been sipping
>premium.
>
>Apparently, drivers are figuring this out.

More power to 'em - it will drive down the price of Corvette fuel (and
make auto mechanics rich).

>David Shapiro said he and his wife switched to regular independently of
>each other about two weeks ago. It was a spur-of-the-moment decision
>for the tax lawyer with the D.C. office of PricewaterhouseCoopers.
>
>"I never really knew if it made a difference, and I figured it was time
>to try and see if my car really works fine," he said of his Volvo,
>which recommends premium fuel. "It's like two bucks a tank difference,
>so it's like a free gallon. And it hasn't made a bit of difference in
>how the car drives."

Well, sure - when you drive like a Sloth, barely revving the engine
above idle speed, you probably wouldn't notice the difference.

>"It does not hurt the engine -- sensors automatically readjust the
>engine basically for that reason, to save itself," he said.

Sure - within limits.

>Chrysler recommends 91-octane fuel for its high-performance and
>turbocharged automobiles, such as the SRT models, "but all our products
>will run on 87 or 89," Quinnell said. Any loss in performance would
>come when an engine is pushing to its maximum power and speed, he said,
>so "if an average driver got into one of our SRT vehicles, they
>wouldn't notice any change."

Replace "average" with "sloth" and you have a true statement.

>"Manufacturers want to be able to quote high horsepower numbers,"
>Brauer said. "If it's not run on premium, it probably won't ever hurt
>the car. It probably won't ever be noticed by most drivers. But they
>can still have their claimed horsepower for their brochures."

OTOH, if you run your "premium fuel ONLY" engine on regular gas, and
suffer engine damage because of it, you'll void your warranty and have
to foot the bill for a new engine out of your own pocket. Is the risk
worth saving a piddly $2/tank?

>Oil refiners make the most money from selling higher-grade gasoline
>because the higher cost to produce it is more than made up by the added
>charge to customers, said Fadel Gheit, an oil analyst at Oppenheimer &
>Co. in New York. Gas stations also benefit from higher margins on
>premium fuel.
>
>"It's to everybody's advantage to push the high-grade," Gheit said.

Let's examine that statement more closely.

Here in SoCal, gas prices always follow the same pattern: If the price
of 87 octane regular gas is $X, then the price of mid-grade 89 octane
is $X + $0.10, and the price of premium is $X + $0.20. This has been
true for many years. What's odd is that this pattern holds true no
matter the value of X. When regular gas was $1.50/gallon, premium was
$1.70; When regular is $2.50, premium is $2.70 - i.e. when the price
of regular rises by 67%, the price of premium only rises by 59%. In
short, the profit margin for premium grade fuel actually goes DOWN as
the price of gas rises. If I were selling fuel, I'd want to sell more
regular, not more premium. If I could, maybe I'd even plant a clever
propaganda piece in the newspaper to convince people to make the
switch, making myself and my mechanic buddies rich.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:51:56 GMT, "Pete R" >
wrote:

>Astonishing that the American consumer's response to obscene
>gas prices (and obscene oil company profits) is simply to use a
>cheaper grade of gas.
>
>We're utterly and completely pussy whipped.

Yup.

The mindless masses are willing to participate in these ridiculous one
day gas boycotts, and damage their engines by buying a cheaper grade
of gas, but they're unwilling to take the only step that has any
chance of making a difference: REDUCE THEIR DRIVING.

Don't like the high price of gasoline? Take the train or the bus to
work. Walk to the grocery store and your other neighborhood errands.
If I can do it, so can you.

"Scott en Aztlán" > wrote in message
...
> Don't like the high price of gasoline? Take the train or the bus to
> work. Walk to the grocery store and your other neighborhood errands.
> If I can do it, so can you.

Just curious, how far do you think is a reasonable walk to the grocery for a
55 year old woman in reasonable good health and in 90 degree, high-humidity
weather? (I'm assuming pushing the groceries home in some kind of cart, but
on a heavily traveled street mostly without sidewalks.)

"Chloe" > wrote in message news:...
> "Scott en Aztlán" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Don't like the high price of gasoline? Take the train or the bus to
>> work. Walk to the grocery store and your other neighborhood errands.
>> If I can do it, so can you.
>
> Just curious, how far do you think is a reasonable walk to the grocery for
> a 55 year old woman in reasonable good health and in 90 degree,
> high-humidity weather? (I'm assuming pushing the groceries home in some
> kind of cart, but on a heavily traveled street mostly without sidewalks.)

Oops, I forgot...including several fairly steep hills, too.

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:51:56 GMT, "Pete R" >
> wrote:
>
> >Astonishing that the American consumer's response to obscene
> >gas prices (and obscene oil company profits) is simply to use a
> >cheaper grade of gas.
> >
> >We're utterly and completely pussy whipped.
>
> Yup.
>
> The mindless masses are willing to participate in these ridiculous one
> day gas boycotts, and damage their engines by buying a cheaper grade
> of gas, but they're unwilling to take the only step that has any
> chance of making a difference: REDUCE THEIR DRIVING.

Did you read anything from the original article? Or have you ever read
anything about gas grades? If the car was made after about 1990 you're
just going to lose some horsepower, you won't damage the engine.

> Don't like the high price of gasoline? Take the train or the bus to
> work. Walk to the grocery store and your other neighborhood errands.
> If I can do it, so can you.

Yeah, it's not like people who's job involves going to different
locations really need to get to the other locations. The can tell
their customers to screw off, since without the job they'll save a lot
of money on gas.

It also doesn't help that the average bus route around here takes 2+
hours to cover 20 miles, and still leaves me with 4 or more miles of
walking before and after the bus ride just to do to complete the trip.
Hmmm, 6 hours for a round trip I can do in my car in under 1 hour?

And as far as walking to the store, I know my car can carry a lot more
groceries than me, and with it being over a half-mile each way to the
nearest store, as well as the problems my knee has, I'll choose to
drive.

There's a lot of steps that can be taken to make a difference, like
making sure you have properly inflated tires, that your air filter is
clean, planning your routes efficiently and ridesharing when possible.


To suggest that everyone can take a bus to work or walk to the store is
the same bull**** that makes a lot of people resent paying to subsidize
mass transit for other people. I'm glad transit works nicely for you,
but it doesn't for everyone.

Dave