Ethanol was a "Mistake" says Al Gore

On 11/24/2010 12:59 PM, Brent wrote:
> On 2010-11-24, > wrote:
>>
>> "Steve > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> ATHENS, Greece -- Former Vice President Al Gore reportedly has had a
>>> change of heart on ethanol, telling a conference on green energy in
>>> Europe that he supported tax breaks for the alternative fuel to pander
>>> to farmers in his home state of Tennessee and the first-in-the-nation
>>> caucuses state of Iowa.
>>
>> Well, he has apparently become a little more honest than a lot of the
>> politicians.
>
> No he's not. he's in for himself and there is no reason for him not to
> throw the corn farmers under the bus now. He likely wants to start
> looking more reasonable to protect his potentional billions in profits
> from the carbon credits fraud.
>
>


you got that dead right - and carbon credits are indeed a fraud.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 11/24/2010 11:50 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>
> ATHENS, Greece -- Former Vice President Al Gore reportedly has had a
> change of heart on ethanol, telling a conference on green energy in
> Europe that he supported tax breaks for the alternative fuel to pander
> to farmers in his home state of Tennessee and the first-in-the-nation
> caucuses state of Iowa.
>
> Speaking at a green energy business conference in Athens sponsored by
> Marfin Popular Bank, Gore said the lobbyists have wrongly kept alive the
> program he once touted.
>
> "It is not a good policy to have these massive subsidies for
> first-generation ethanol," Reuters quoted Gore saying of the policy that
> is about to come up for congressional review. "First-generation ethanol
> I think was a mistake. The energy conversion ratios are at best very small.
>
> "One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular
> attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a
> certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was
> about to run for president," the wire service reported Gore saying.
>
> Ethanol is made by extracting sugar from corn, an energy-intensive
> process. The ethanol industry will consume about 41 percent of the corn
> crop this year, or 15 percent of the global corn crop, according to
> Goldman Sachs analysts.
>
> A food-versus-fuel debate erupted in 2008, as a result of record food
> prices, in which the biofuel industry was criticized for helping stoke
> food prices.

stoke food prices indeed. with the agri-commodity industry, oil
industries [and of course speculators], behind it every step of the way.


>
> Gore supported so-called second generation technologies which do not
> compete with food, for example cellulosic technologies which use
> chemicals or enzymes to extract sugar from fiber for example in wood,
> waste or grass

it's the only thing that makes any sense. but notice how little
agri-commodity and speculator interest there is in a scheme where they
have no market presence, and for which the raw materials are pretty much
unlimited and thus non-profitable.

bottom line - cellulosic ethanol will quietly die a death. the burning
of food, with all the fuel, fertilizer, machinery, tax subsidy and
speculation potential that it entails, will continue to receive
political backing.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 11/24/2010 01:23 PM, Tegger wrote:
> > wrote in
> :
>
>> On Nov 24, 3:35�pm, > wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Alcohol can be a great fuel for engines set up for it. �But this was
>>> pokum hokum from the beginning.
>>
>> I think the key phrase is this: "The energy conversion ratios are at
>> best very small." That right there is why ethanol subsidies are bad
>> policy. If that were NOT the case, then they would make sense.
>>
>
>
>
> If that were NOT the case, you wouldn't need subsidies in the first place;
> we'd have been burning ethanol since the '20s.
>

indeed.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

I reckon Brazil is doing quite well with their vehicles which run on
alcohol.
cuhulin

wrote:
> I reckon Brazil is doing quite well with their vehicles which run on
> alcohol.
> cuhulin
>

YEP, and they also don't have the regulations and bureaucratic crap to
deal with.... Oh and consider that they have absolutely no where near
the numbers of vehicles running on it, they run a LOT of diesel vehicles
there.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> I reckon Brazil is doing quite well with their vehicles which run on
>> alcohol.
>> cuhulin
>>
>
> YEP, and they also don't have the regulations and bureaucratic crap to
> deal with.... Oh and consider that they have absolutely no where near
> the numbers of vehicles running on it, they run a LOT of diesel vehicles
> there.
>
> --
> Steve W.

They got serious about this years ago because they didnt have enough
petroleum in country. I was there a couple of years ago, and the
taxi I took from Rio de Janeiro airport was a tri fuel model.. Could
run on LNG, alcohol, or gasoline, IIRC.

They no longer have a shortage of fuel, due to new petroleum finds
but also due to being agressive about alternate fuel.

On 2010-11-27, hls > wrote:
>
> "Steve W." > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>> I reckon Brazil is doing quite well with their vehicles which run on
>>> alcohol.
>>> cuhulin
>>>
>>
>> YEP, and they also don't have the regulations and bureaucratic crap to
>> deal with.... Oh and consider that they have absolutely no where near
>> the numbers of vehicles running on it, they run a LOT of diesel vehicles
>> there.
>>
>> --
>> Steve W.
>
> They got serious about this years ago because they didnt have enough
> petroleum in country. I was there a couple of years ago, and the
> taxi I took from Rio de Janeiro airport was a tri fuel model.. Could
> run on LNG, alcohol, or gasoline, IIRC.
>
> They no longer have a shortage of fuel, due to new petroleum finds
> but also due to being agressive about alternate fuel.

Brazil uses sugar cane to make ethanol and that is an entirely different
ballgame than corn. Unlike corn, the sugar cane plant material itself
fuels the conversion process. This alone makes the energy balance better
and since sugar isn't a vital food product such as grains like corn
using doesn't result in starving people (so long as it isn't displacing
food crops of course).

"Brent" > wrote in message
...
> On 2010-11-27, hls > wrote:
>>
>> "Steve W." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> wrote:
>>>> I reckon Brazil is doing quite well with their vehicles which run on
>>>> alcohol.
>>>> cuhulin
>>>>
>>>
>>> YEP, and they also don't have the regulations and bureaucratic crap to
>>> deal with.... Oh and consider that they have absolutely no where near
>>> the numbers of vehicles running on it, they run a LOT of diesel vehicles
>>> there.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve W.
>>
>> They got serious about this years ago because they didnt have enough
>> petroleum in country. I was there a couple of years ago, and the
>> taxi I took from Rio de Janeiro airport was a tri fuel model.. Could
>> run on LNG, alcohol, or gasoline, IIRC.
>>
>> They no longer have a shortage of fuel, due to new petroleum finds
>> but also due to being agressive about alternate fuel.
>
> Brazil uses sugar cane to make ethanol and that is an entirely different
> ballgame than corn. Unlike corn, the sugar cane plant material itself
> fuels the conversion process. This alone makes the energy balance better
> and since sugar isn't a vital food product such as grains like corn
> using doesn't result in starving people (so long as it isn't displacing
> food crops of course).
>

That is exactly right. .Sugar cane requires no fertilizer and produces a
lot of fermentable carbohydrates. Mandioca is also a crop of interest.

We dont want to displace the cachac,a of course.

On the web,
The Diesel fuel trees in Brazil

There is a guy in Hawaii who is growing some of those trees.Or so I once
read about, a few years ago.
cuhulin

http://www.solarcompanies.com/upart/history-of-ethanol

In ancient times ethanol was known as an intoxicating drink.
cuhulin