'02 300M overheating now

actually now that I think about it, it didn't take that long because I did
the pump only. I had done the timing belt 3 months earlier and hadn't done
the pump at that time and I should have. So it was pump only.


The 2nd time was on the LHS, not the Concorde, and it needed the belt but
also the tensioner pulley was gone with roller bearings laying all over the
place, so it took just a little longer. but I had learned so much about how
to get into it, to change the belt, that tear down and reassembly went
pretty fast. I drained coolant, pulled fans, drive belts, took over the
belt cover, and changed out belt and pump.

It might be a good idea to turn engine over and line up the cam pulleys with
timing marks on the block, and making sure the crank timing mark is
straight up. that way the engine is in time when you take the belt loose.
when you put it back together, make sure the timing marks are still lined
up, and your good to go.


"Rob" > wrote in message
ng.com...
> the first time took me two days because I had broken the timing belt, I
> couldn't find the timing mark on the crank. and also I couldn't get
> anyone to give me a clear answer as to whether or not the 3.5 is an
> interference engine. mine was a first generation so it was not. the 2nd
> gen is I think.
>
> but 2nd time it was around 4-5. took out the drive belts, and fans but
> not the radiator. mainly just for clearance. Took my time with it to make
> sure I did it right, and ran to the store to get new hoses at one point.
>
> the timing belt doesn't need to come off, just loosened as it wraps around
> the water pump.
>
> keep in mind this is for a 1st gen engine in a Concorde/LHS/ New Yorker
> and intrepid. So some bolts may be in different spots.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/robs446...7631058831272/
>
> "Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Here's the Web site I mentioned:
>>
>> > http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=211602
>>
>> He says that on one of the three water-pump replacements he did he didn't
>> even remove the fans, let alone the radiator.
>>
>> How long did it take you to do the job the first time? Any idea what the
>> "official" time for the job is? My wife says, "Take the car somewhere to
>> have it done", but I'm thinking that it's not as difficult a task as I
>> had thought: I had thought that the drive pulley on the end of the
>> crankshaft had to be pulled, but I see that that is not so. And if I
>> reuse the timing belt, which is only 25K miles old, I don't have the
>> hassle of taking it off and trying to put a new one on -- which took the
>> other guy 2hr the first time.
>>
>> Perce
>>
>>
>> On 08/13/12 05:14 pm, Rob wrote:
>>
>>> I've done 3 of them. they are cake with the exception of your timing
>>> belt
>>> tensioner which I have worked out a cheat on that too. that would take
>>> too
>>> long to explain though.
>>>
>>> the main thing is draining coolant, pulling top radiator support, then
>>> hoses, fans, and the radiator itself. once you get that out it's just a
>>> matter of pulling the two covers over the timing belt housing, and
>>> releasing
>>> the timing belt tension so you can get the belt off the water pump.
>>>
>>> which I still had access to my alldata account for the LHS, the pics
>>> would
>>> make it easier. since I no longer own it, I didn't subscribe this year.
>>>
>>> This has been a source of great info for the cost. and each year after
>>> its
>>> cheaper, plus you can print out the info and pictures to carry it out
>>> into
>>> the garage, or just take a laptop out there with you.
>>> http://alldatadiy.com/buy/
>>
>>>> I see that the service manual's diagnostic check for water-pump failure
>>>> is
>>>> to check for cabin heat: no heat may indicate water-pump failure.
>>>>
>>>> I found a detailed description (with pictures) on line of replacing the
>>>> water pump on a 300M, but it looks messy, and I don't know that I'm
>>>> ready
>>>> to tackle it. (BTW, he says that the original impeller was plastic --
>>>> as
>>>> ISTR mine was -- but the new one he installed looked like metal.) I'm
>>>> inclined to go back to the shop that replaced the water pump along with
>>>> the timing belt, etc. about 25K miles ago, because there *might* have
>>>> been
>>>> a "limited lifetime warranty" on the pump itself (as I see on some of
>>>> the
>>>> after-market ones), and they *might* give me a break on the labor
>>>> charge
>>>> as well in the circumstances. I don't think I want to entrust it to my
>>>> neighbor's friend who admits to drilling extra holes in thermostat
>>>> bodies as a means of dealing with problems.
>>
>
>

On 08/11/12 09:35 pm, Rob wrote:
> Ditto......
>
> as long as he's not getting any bubbles in his coolant at cold, he's bled
> the system, and not getting any steam out the tailpipe or coolant in the
> oil, then I am aiming for the same thing.
>
>
>
> "Mopar > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
>>
>>> ". When Engine is cold: Thermostat is closed, cool-
>>> ing system has no flow through the radiator. The
>>> coolant flows through the engine, heater core, coolant
>>> bottle and an internal engine by-pass.
>>
>> I think that's the case for most cars that coolant always flows through
>> the heater core regardless what the thermostat is doing.
>>
>> I know that on my 300m that in the winter (when the car has been in the
>> garage overnight with the garage temp at about 45 - 50 F and outside
>> temp in the 10's or 20's) that if I turn the heat on, I will feel some
>> luke-warm air after about 1 minute of driving - and the needle of the
>> temp guage pointing to the first mark on the dial. After 2 or 3 minutes
>> of driving, the air is blowing hot.
>>
>> About 2 years ago I had the timing belt changed on my 300m - and along
>> with that the water pump was changed too (no reason other than it was
>> easy to do with not much added cost). I have the original pump (and
>> belt). The new pump was made by Fenco.
>>
>> I'd have to say that in your case - the pump must have failed. The
>> impeller must be free-wheeling and not doing any pumping.

Bingo! The impeller is not just loose on the shaft but fractured. I'll
try to find some place to post a picture.

According to the markings on the pump that the former* Chrysler dealer
installed, it's the same as the one Advance Auto Parts sells. The new
one I'm about to install came from NAPA; when they tried to sell me a
new timing belt as well, I declined, since the current one has only 25K
miles on it, but I can't see any markings on it that indicate the brand,
so maybe I *should* buy a new belt as well, in case the one they
installed is as crappy as the pump.

*They'd already lost their dealership (as had the Dodge dealership in
town) by the time I had the timing belt job done, but I'd kept going
back, as I reckoned they knew what they were doing and would still have
any special tools that were needed -- and they were much closer. Now we
have a new Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership town -- a company that already
had dealerships for some other makes.

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> On 08/11/12 09:35 pm, Rob wrote:
>> Ditto......
>>
>> as long as he's not getting any bubbles in his coolant at cold, he's bled
>> the system, and not getting any steam out the tailpipe or coolant in the
>> oil, then I am aiming for the same thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Mopar > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
>>>
>>>> ". When Engine is cold: Thermostat is closed, cool-
>>>> ing system has no flow through the radiator. The
>>>> coolant flows through the engine, heater core, coolant
>>>> bottle and an internal engine by-pass.
>>>
>>> I think that's the case for most cars that coolant always flows through
>>> the heater core regardless what the thermostat is doing.
>>>
>>> I know that on my 300m that in the winter (when the car has been in the
>>> garage overnight with the garage temp at about 45 - 50 F and outside
>>> temp in the 10's or 20's) that if I turn the heat on, I will feel some
>>> luke-warm air after about 1 minute of driving - and the needle of the
>>> temp guage pointing to the first mark on the dial. After 2 or 3 minutes
>>> of driving, the air is blowing hot.
>>>
>>> About 2 years ago I had the timing belt changed on my 300m - and along
>>> with that the water pump was changed too (no reason other than it was
>>> easy to do with not much added cost). I have the original pump (and
>>> belt). The new pump was made by Fenco.
>>>
>>> I'd have to say that in your case - the pump must have failed. The
>>> impeller must be free-wheeling and not doing any pumping.
>
> Bingo! The impeller is not just loose on the shaft but fractured. I'll try
> to find some place to post a picture.
>
> According to the markings on the pump that the former* Chrysler dealer
> installed, it's the same as the one Advance Auto Parts sells. The new one
> I'm about to install came from NAPA; when they tried to sell me a new
> timing belt as well, I declined, since the current one has only 25K miles
> on it, but I can't see any markings on it that indicate the brand, so
> maybe I *should* buy a new belt as well, in case the one they installed
> is as crappy as the pump.
>
> *They'd already lost their dealership (as had the Dodge dealership in
> town) by the time I had the timing belt job done, but I'd kept going back,
> as I reckoned they knew what they were doing and would still have any
> special tools that were needed -- and they were much closer. Now we have a
> new Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership town -- a company that already had
> dealerships for some other makes.
>
> Perce


make sure there's no cracking between the teeth on the bottom side.

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

> Bingo! The impeller is not just loose on the shaft but fractured.
> I'll try to find some place to post a picture.

Is the impeller made of some sort of plastic or resin / polymer (ie -
something that isin't metal) ?

Please post what-ever numbers or make/model is stamped on it.

I hope it's not made or branded as "Fenco".

On 08/15/12 03:15 pm, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

> Bingo! The impeller is not just loose on the shaft but fractured. I'll
> try to find some place to post a picture.
>
> According to the markings on the pump that the former* Chrysler dealer
> installed, it's the same as the one Advance Auto Parts sells. The new
> one I'm about to install came from NAPA; when they tried to sell me a
> new timing belt as well, I declined, since the current one has only 25K
> miles on it, but I can't see any markings on it that indicate the brand,
> so maybe I *should* buy a new belt as well, in case the one they
> installed is as crappy as the pump.
>
> *They'd already lost their dealership (as had the Dodge dealership in
> town) by the time I had the timing belt job done, but I'd kept going
> back, as I reckoned they knew what they were doing and would still have
> any special tools that were needed -- and they were much closer. Now we
> have a new Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership town -- a company that already
> had dealerships for some other makes.

I bought the new belt, but it was only when I went to instal it that I
noticed that the black on the tensioner pulley was not just black from
the belt: the pulley itself was black *plastic*(!!) -- no maker's name,
part number, or any markings at all to identify it. So I bought a new
one from NAPA.

BUT when I tried to torque the bolt to the specified 45 ft. lbs. it got
to about 35 ft. lbs then started turning freely, just as somebody else
reported on the Intrepid forum (and somebody there reported that a 300
owner had had the same problem). The guy reported there that he had the
Heli-Coil items he needed but never reported back on the success or
otherwise of the repair.

I am at present waiting for word from S&J Discount Tools on expedited
shipping of the appropriate Heli-Coil tool and insert (AZ and Advance
have only 10mm-long inserts; I need 20mm) and 13/32" drill. I'm also
going to need a right-angle drill, but that may well be useful for other
things as well; Ryobi (sold by Home Depot) makes one that works with the
batteries I have already.

BTW, the water pump I got from NAPA has a black impeller, but it looks
and sounds (when I flick it with a finger nail) more like metal than
plastic. The box has the name "Gates" on the bottom. The replacement
tensioner pulley is "supplied by" (it doesn't say "made by") Cloyes
Gear Company, Paris, Arkansas.

Perce

On 08/20/12 10:54 am, P wrote:

>> Bingo! The impeller is not just loose on the shaft but fractured. I'll
>> try to find some place to post a picture.
>>
>> According to the markings on the pump that the former* Chrysler dealer
>> installed, it's the same as the one Advance Auto Parts sells. The new
>> one I'm about to install came from NAPA; when they tried to sell me a
>> new timing belt as well, I declined, since the current one has only 25K
>> miles on it, but I can't see any markings on it that indicate the brand,
>> so maybe I *should* buy a new belt as well, in case the one they
>> installed is as crappy as the pump.
>>
>> *They'd already lost their dealership (as had the Dodge dealership in
>> town) by the time I had the timing belt job done, but I'd kept going
>> back, as I reckoned they knew what they were doing and would still have
>> any special tools that were needed -- and they were much closer. Now we
>> have a new Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership in town -- a company that already
>> had dealerships for some other makes.
>
> I bought the new belt, but it was only when I went to install it that I
> noticed that the black on the tensioner pulley was not just black from
> the belt: the pulley itself was black *plastic*(!!) -- no maker's name,
> part number, or any markings at all to identify it. So I bought a new
> one from NAPA.
>
> BUT when I tried to torque the bolt to the specified 45 ft. lbs. it got
> to about 35 ft. lbs then started turning freely, just as somebody else
> reported on the Intrepid forum (and somebody there reported that a 300
> owner had had the same problem). The guy reported there that he had the
> Heli-Coil items he needed but never reported back on the success or
> otherwise of the repair.
>
> I am at present waiting for word from S&J Discount Tools on expedited
> shipping of the appropriate Heli-Coil tool and insert (AZ and Advance
> have only 10mm-long inserts; I need 20mm) and 13/32" drill. I'm also
> going to need a right-angle drill, but that may well be useful for other
> things as well; Ryobi (sold by Home Depot) makes one that works with the
> batteries I have already.
>
> BTW, the water pump I got from NAPA has a black impeller, but it looks
> and sounds (when I flick it with a finger nail) more like metal than
> plastic. The box has the name "Gates" on the bottom. The replacement
> tensioner pulley is "supplied by" (it doesn't say "made by") Cloyes Gear
> Company, Paris, Arkansas....

... and now I see in small print on the bar-code label of the tensioner
pulley "Made in Korea."

By the time S&J Discount Tools got back to me to say that it would take
*three weeks* to get what I wanted (despite the information on their Web
site that all but one of the items "usually ships within 24 hours" and
the other "usually ships within 48 hours"), I had decided that this was
a job I did not want to tackle: what if I drilled too far and got
drilling debris in the oil pump that is back to back with the tensioner
mechanism? I'm taking it in to an auto shop tomorrow and let them do the
Heli-Coil job and put everything back together; if they did only the
Heli-Coil job, I would still have to pay to have the car transported
back home so I could do the rest myself.

The guy there was surprised that anyone would use a plastic pulley for
such service. Hearing of the two or more cases of stripped threads at
less then the specified 45 ft. lbs., he said he would check for updates
to the Service Manual -- but in any case installing a Heli-Coil should
permit even more torque to be applied.

Perce

yeah heli - coil work can be tricky. you have to make sure you drill the
hole exactly straight, and not at an angle. you then have to use the
supplied TAP to cut threads in the new hole for the heli coil insert, then
screw in the insert, making sure it is bottomed out at the end of the
threads. most machinists I know that install heli-coils in product parts
say its best to knock out the bottom tang with a real small chisel one the
insert is down all the way, that way there's no danger of your bolt backing
out accidently.





"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> On 08/20/12 10:54 am, P wrote:
>
>>> Bingo! The impeller is not just loose on the shaft but fractured. I'll
>>> try to find some place to post a picture.
>>>
>>> According to the markings on the pump that the former* Chrysler dealer
>>> installed, it's the same as the one Advance Auto Parts sells. The new
>>> one I'm about to install came from NAPA; when they tried to sell me a
>>> new timing belt as well, I declined, since the current one has only 25K
>>> miles on it, but I can't see any markings on it that indicate the brand,
>>> so maybe I *should* buy a new belt as well, in case the one they
>>> installed is as crappy as the pump.
>>>
>>> *They'd already lost their dealership (as had the Dodge dealership in
>>> town) by the time I had the timing belt job done, but I'd kept going
>>> back, as I reckoned they knew what they were doing and would still have
>>> any special tools that were needed -- and they were much closer. Now we
>>> have a new Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership in town -- a company that
>>> already
>>> had dealerships for some other makes.
>>
>> I bought the new belt, but it was only when I went to install it that I
>> noticed that the black on the tensioner pulley was not just black from
>> the belt: the pulley itself was black *plastic*(!!) -- no maker's name,
>> part number, or any markings at all to identify it. So I bought a new
>> one from NAPA.
>>
>> BUT when I tried to torque the bolt to the specified 45 ft. lbs. it got
>> to about 35 ft. lbs then started turning freely, just as somebody else
>> reported on the Intrepid forum (and somebody there reported that a 300
>> owner had had the same problem). The guy reported there that he had the
>> Heli-Coil items he needed but never reported back on the success or
>> otherwise of the repair.
>>
>> I am at present waiting for word from S&J Discount Tools on expedited
>> shipping of the appropriate Heli-Coil tool and insert (AZ and Advance
>> have only 10mm-long inserts; I need 20mm) and 13/32" drill. I'm also
>> going to need a right-angle drill, but that may well be useful for other
>> things as well; Ryobi (sold by Home Depot) makes one that works with the
>> batteries I have already.
>>
>> BTW, the water pump I got from NAPA has a black impeller, but it looks
>> and sounds (when I flick it with a finger nail) more like metal than
>> plastic. The box has the name "Gates" on the bottom. The replacement
>> tensioner pulley is "supplied by" (it doesn't say "made by") Cloyes Gear
>> Company, Paris, Arkansas....
>
> .. and now I see in small print on the bar-code label of the tensioner
> pulley "Made in Korea."
>
> By the time S&J Discount Tools got back to me to say that it would take
> *three weeks* to get what I wanted (despite the information on their Web
> site that all but one of the items "usually ships within 24 hours" and the
> other "usually ships within 48 hours"), I had decided that this was a job
> I did not want to tackle: what if I drilled too far and got drilling
> debris in the oil pump that is back to back with the tensioner mechanism?
> I'm taking it in to an auto shop tomorrow and let them do the Heli-Coil
> job and put everything back together; if they did only the Heli-Coil job,
> I would still have to pay to have the car transported back home so I could
> do the rest myself.
>
> The guy there was surprised that anyone would use a plastic pulley for
> such service. Hearing of the two or more cases of stripped threads at less
> then the specified 45 ft. lbs., he said he would check for updates to the
> Service Manual -- but in any case installing a Heli-Coil should permit
> even more torque to be applied.
>
> Perce

On 08/20/12 08:09 pm, I wrote:

> By the time S&J Discount Tools got back to me to say that it would take
> *three weeks* to get what I wanted (despite the information on their Web
> site that all but one of the items "usually ships within 24 hours" and
> the other "usually ships within 48 hours"), I had decided that this was
> a job I did not want to tackle: what if I drilled too far and got
> drilling debris in the oil pump that is back to back with the tensioner
> mechanism? I'm taking it in to an auto shop tomorrow and let them do the
> Heli-Coil job and put everything back together; if they did only the
> Heli-Coil job, I would still have to pay to have the car transported
> back home so I could do the rest myself.
>
> The guy there was surprised that anyone would use a plastic pulley for
> such service. Hearing of the two or more cases of stripped threads at
> less then the specified 45 ft. lbs., he said he would check for updates
> to the Service Manual -- but in any case installing a Heli-Coil should
> permit even more torque to be applied.

The specific charges for the Heli-Coil job and installation of the
tensioner pulley were $80 for labor (probably reasonable) and $20 for
the Heli-Coil itself (compared to S&J Discount Tools' price of $1.20,
but I didn't feel in the mood for arguing). That's still less than it
would have cost me to get what I needed to do the job myself (although
that would have included a right-angle drill that could have come in
useful later as well).

I gave them all the coolant that I had drained out, plus some I had left
over, but they still charged me for more. Perhaps with the pump not
functioning there were still unfilled spaces in the cooling system. They
also replaced the filler cap.

The boss said that if I had brought it to them to do the water pump,
they would definitely have called me and recommended replacing the
plastic tensioner pulley.

In the process of Googling something else, I came across an archived
version of the discussion here back in June 2009 about the $700 quote I
had received for replacing the timing belt, water pump, tensioner
pulley, etc.; some thought it was high, while someone else said that,
considering the markup on OEM parts, it was not unreasonable. BUT, as we
now know, I did not get OEM parts for my $700.

Perce

replacing the radiator cap is always a good idea its a few years old.


so it's running now?



"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> On 08/20/12 08:09 pm, I wrote:
>
>> By the time S&J Discount Tools got back to me to say that it would take
>> *three weeks* to get what I wanted (despite the information on their Web
>> site that all but one of the items "usually ships within 24 hours" and
>> the other "usually ships within 48 hours"), I had decided that this was
>> a job I did not want to tackle: what if I drilled too far and got
>> drilling debris in the oil pump that is back to back with the tensioner
>> mechanism? I'm taking it in to an auto shop tomorrow and let them do the
>> Heli-Coil job and put everything back together; if they did only the
>> Heli-Coil job, I would still have to pay to have the car transported
>> back home so I could do the rest myself.
>>
>> The guy there was surprised that anyone would use a plastic pulley for
>> such service. Hearing of the two or more cases of stripped threads at
>> less then the specified 45 ft. lbs., he said he would check for updates
>> to the Service Manual -- but in any case installing a Heli-Coil should
>> permit even more torque to be applied.
>
> The specific charges for the Heli-Coil job and installation of the
> tensioner pulley were $80 for labor (probably reasonable) and $20 for the
> Heli-Coil itself (compared to S&J Discount Tools' price of $1.20, but I
> didn't feel in the mood for arguing). That's still less than it would have
> cost me to get what I needed to do the job myself (although that would
> have included a right-angle drill that could have come in useful later as
> well).
>
> I gave them all the coolant that I had drained out, plus some I had left
> over, but they still charged me for more. Perhaps with the pump not
> functioning there were still unfilled spaces in the cooling system. They
> also replaced the filler cap.
>
> The boss said that if I had brought it to them to do the water pump, they
> would definitely have called me and recommended replacing the plastic
> tensioner pulley.
>
> In the process of Googling something else, I came across an archived
> version of the discussion here back in June 2009 about the $700 quote I
> had received for replacing the timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley,
> etc.; some thought it was high, while someone else said that, considering
> the markup on OEM parts, it was not unreasonable. BUT, as we now know, I
> did not get OEM parts for my $700.
>
> Perce