'02 300M overheating now

Forgot to mention:

1. After the 15min. run the top radiator hose was too hot to keep my
finger on, whereas the bottom hose was barely warm.

2. I read somewhere today for the first time that the bleed valve *must*
be open before filling is *started*. I could drain it and refill it
again with the bleed valve open IF I could get the radiator drain cock
to open sufficiently to drain the system. I had managed to turn it 180
degrees before I did the a/c. but now I can't get it past 100 degrees,
at which point all there is is a slow drip. I haven't tried pliers
because there is a strict warning against doing so.

Is it possible that there is an air bubble right where the water pump is?


On 08/11/12 10:37 pm, I wrote:

> Yuck! That's not going to be cheap to have someone fix. That's almost as
> much work as the timing-belt job I had done two or three years back --
> although not as many parts now, of course. The water pump was replaced
> then; surely it should have lasted longer than this.
>
> But that would explain the sudden onset of overheating when it had been
> running fine after the a/c job.
>
> I tried to get at the thermostat today but couldn't release the spring
> hose clamp. I've bled the thing again (cold) and kept pumping the top
> radiator hose, which seemed to get rid of still more air -- coolant
> bottle fluid level dropping even with the bleed valve closed. Since
> using the "special tool" filler funnel (which I don't have) according to
> the manual releases a small amount of coolant into the overflow chamber,
> I let some coolant flow into it before I started the engine.
>
> I then ran it for about 15 minutes at engine speeds between 500 and
> 2000rpm, and it was just getting up toward the red (rather sudden
> increase from sitting around half-scale). The coolant level in the
> overflow compartment of the bottle was higher then.
>
> Still no heat in the cabin.
>
> BTW, I read somewhere today that modern thermostats rarely stick closed:
> they are designed to fail open.
>
> On 08/11/12 09:35 pm, Rob wrote:
>> Ditto......
>>
>> as long as he's not getting any bubbles in his coolant at cold, he's bled
>> the system, and not getting any steam out the tailpipe or coolant in the
>> oil, then I am aiming for the same thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Mopar > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
>>>
>>>> ". When Engine is cold: Thermostat is closed, cool-
>>>> ing system has no flow through the radiator. The
>>>> coolant flows through the engine, heater core, coolant
>>>> bottle and an internal engine by-pass.
>>>
>>> I think that's the case for most cars that coolant always flows through
>>> the heater core regardless what the thermostat is doing.
>>>
>>> I know that on my 300m that in the winter (when the car has been in the
>>> garage overnight with the garage temp at about 45 - 50 F and outside
>>> temp in the 10's or 20's) that if I turn the heat on, I will feel some
>>> luke-warm air after about 1 minute of driving - and the needle of the
>>> temp guage pointing to the first mark on the dial. After 2 or 3 minutes
>>> of driving, the air is blowing hot.
>>>
>>> About 2 years ago I had the timing belt changed on my 300m - and along
>>> with that the water pump was changed too (no reason other than it was
>>> easy to do with not much added cost). I have the original pump (and
>>> belt). The new pump was made by Fenco.
>>>
>>> I'd have to say that in your case - the pump must have failed. The
>>> impeller must be free-wheeling and not doing any pumping.
>

"Percival P. Cassidy" top-poasted:

> Still no heat in the cabin.
>
> BTW, I read somewhere today that modern thermostats rarely stick
> closed: they are designed to fail open.

We had a '73 Newport that had a vacuum-operated valve in the line going
to the heater core. The valve was operated by the dashboard cabin
heat-control levers. The idea (I think) was that in the summer you
might not want hot water circulating in the heater core.

Maybe the 300m has a similar valve - and it's not working properly (and
that's why you're not getting cabin heat).

Even if that was the case, it wouldn't be the cause of the temp guage
going into the red - unless there's a problem with the sensor?. If the
coolant sensor is sitting in an air pocket (ie - if it's not immersed or
surrounded by coolant for some reason) then it's possible that it could
reach a high temp that's not representative of the real engine coolant
temperature.

What I'd do if I were you is run the engine without a thermostat. I
used to do that with my '65 Polara (with slant-6). Running without a
thermostat and the temp still going into the red would tell you that the
problem is not the thermostat.

You could also try an alternate way of measuring the engine temperature
(external hand-held temp guage of some sort) to confirm over-temp
condition before taking the pump out.

I did manage to get the drain cock open sufficiently to drain the system
(with the bleed valve open and the bottle cap off). I then refilled it
with the bleed valve still open and again with frequent pumping of the
upper radiator hose. I did have to add more coolant to get it full,
which suggests that air might have been occupying part of the space
previously.

Again I let some coolant flow into the overflow compartment, as would
have happened with the "special tool" funnel used according to the
manual; can we estimate with any accuracy how much the special funnel
holds and would allow to flow into the overflow compartment?

I ran the engine for about 15 min. as before. Once the temperature gauge
got up to about half-scale it sat there for quite a while but then
started rising rapidly. I switched off before it got to the red.

If I read the manual correctly, the car should be drivable after
following the filling/bleeding procedure, even if every last bit of air
has still not been removed: that is supposed to happen after a few
warm-up/cool-down cycles, which surely implies driving the car, doesn't it?

Still no heat in the cabin. Top hose hot, bottom hose barely warm.

possible water pump failure. I still have my old water pump
somewhere but can't put my hand on it, so I can't see precisely how it
is constructed. But wouldn't the impeller and the pulley both be keyed
to or shrunk onto the shaft. How could the pulley be turning (driven by
the timing belt) without the impeller also turning? -- unless the pump
has seized, in which case the timing belt isn't going to last much longer.

Perce

On 08/11/12 11:20 pm, I wrote:

> Forgot to mention:
>
> 1. After the 15min. run the top radiator hose was too hot to keep my
> finger on, whereas the bottom hose was barely warm.
>
> 2. I read somewhere today for the first time that the bleed valve *must*
> be open before filling is *started*. I could drain it and refill it
> again with the bleed valve open IF I could get the radiator drain cock
> to open sufficiently to drain the system. I had managed to turn it 180
> degrees before I did the a/c. but now I can't get it past 100 degrees,
> at which point all there is is a slow drip. I haven't tried pliers
> because there is a strict warning against doing so.
>
> Is it possible that there is an air bubble right where the water pump is?
>
>
> On 08/11/12 10:37 pm, I wrote:
>
>> Yuck! That's not going to be cheap to have someone fix. That's almost as
>> much work as the timing-belt job I had done two or three years back --
>> although not as many parts now, of course. The water pump was replaced
>> then; surely it should have lasted longer than this.
>>
>> But that would explain the sudden onset of overheating when it had been
>> running fine after the a/c job.
>>
>> I tried to get at the thermostat today but couldn't release the spring
>> hose clamp. I've bled the thing again (cold) and kept pumping the top
>> radiator hose, which seemed to get rid of still more air -- coolant
>> bottle fluid level dropping even with the bleed valve closed. Since
>> using the "special tool" filler funnel (which I don't have) according to
>> the manual releases a small amount of coolant into the overflow chamber,
>> I let some coolant flow into it before I started the engine.
>>
>> I then ran it for about 15 minutes at engine speeds between 500 and
>> 2000rpm, and it was just getting up toward the red (rather sudden
>> increase from sitting around half-scale). The coolant level in the
>> overflow compartment of the bottle was higher then.
>>
>> Still no heat in the cabin.
>>
>> BTW, I read somewhere today that modern thermostats rarely stick closed:
>> they are designed to fail open.
>>
>> On 08/11/12 09:35 pm, Rob wrote:
>>> Ditto......
>>>
>>> as long as he's not getting any bubbles in his coolant at cold, he's
>>> bled
>>> the system, and not getting any steam out the tailpipe or coolant in the
>>> oil, then I am aiming for the same thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Mopar > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ". When Engine is cold: Thermostat is closed, cool-
>>>>> ing system has no flow through the radiator. The
>>>>> coolant flows through the engine, heater core, coolant
>>>>> bottle and an internal engine by-pass.
>>>>
>>>> I think that's the case for most cars that coolant always flows through
>>>> the heater core regardless what the thermostat is doing.
>>>>
>>>> I know that on my 300m that in the winter (when the car has been in the
>>>> garage overnight with the garage temp at about 45 - 50 F and outside
>>>> temp in the 10's or 20's) that if I turn the heat on, I will feel some
>>>> luke-warm air after about 1 minute of driving - and the needle of the
>>>> temp guage pointing to the first mark on the dial. After 2 or 3 minutes
>>>> of driving, the air is blowing hot.
>>>>
>>>> About 2 years ago I had the timing belt changed on my 300m - and along
>>>> with that the water pump was changed too (no reason other than it was
>>>> easy to do with not much added cost). I have the original pump (and
>>>> belt). The new pump was made by Fenco.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have to say that in your case - the pump must have failed. The
>>>> impeller must be free-wheeling and not doing any pumping.
>>
>

the impeller on mine wasn't keyed, it was pressed on. it started doing
exactly what you are describing, in my 3.5L Concorde. sitting in a parking
lot idling and it suddenly started getting hotter, and the temp gauge went
up into the red.


"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
>I did manage to get the drain cock open sufficiently to drain the system
>(with the bleed valve open and the bottle cap off). I then refilled it with
>the bleed valve still open and again with frequent pumping of the upper
>radiator hose. I did have to add more coolant to get it full, which
>suggests that air might have been occupying part of the space previously.
>
> Again I let some coolant flow into the overflow compartment, as would have
> happened with the "special tool" funnel used according to the manual; can
> we estimate with any accuracy how much the special funnel holds and would
> allow to flow into the overflow compartment?
>
> I ran the engine for about 15 min. as before. Once the temperature gauge
> got up to about half-scale it sat there for quite a while but then started
> rising rapidly. I switched off before it got to the red.
>
> If I read the manual correctly, the car should be drivable after following
> the filling/bleeding procedure, even if every last bit of air has still
> not been removed: that is supposed to happen after a few warm-up/cool-down
> cycles, which surely implies driving the car, doesn't it?
>
> Still no heat in the cabin. Top hose hot, bottom hose barely warm.
>
> possible water pump failure. I still have my old water pump somewhere
> but can't put my hand on it, so I can't see precisely how it is
> constructed. But wouldn't the impeller and the pulley both be keyed to or
> shrunk onto the shaft. How could the pulley be turning (driven by the
> timing belt) without the impeller also turning? -- unless the pump has
> seized, in which case the timing belt isn't going to last much longer.
>
> Perce
>
> On 08/11/12 11:20 pm, I wrote:
>
>> Forgot to mention:
>>
>> 1. After the 15min. run the top radiator hose was too hot to keep my
>> finger on, whereas the bottom hose was barely warm.
>>
>> 2. I read somewhere today for the first time that the bleed valve *must*
>> be open before filling is *started*. I could drain it and refill it
>> again with the bleed valve open IF I could get the radiator drain cock
>> to open sufficiently to drain the system. I had managed to turn it 180
>> degrees before I did the a/c. but now I can't get it past 100 degrees,
>> at which point all there is is a slow drip. I haven't tried pliers
>> because there is a strict warning against doing so.
>>
>> Is it possible that there is an air bubble right where the water pump is?
>>
>>
>> On 08/11/12 10:37 pm, I wrote:
>>
>>> Yuck! That's not going to be cheap to have someone fix. That's almost as
>>> much work as the timing-belt job I had done two or three years back --
>>> although not as many parts now, of course. The water pump was replaced
>>> then; surely it should have lasted longer than this.
>>>
>>> But that would explain the sudden onset of overheating when it had been
>>> running fine after the a/c job.
>>>
>>> I tried to get at the thermostat today but couldn't release the spring
>>> hose clamp. I've bled the thing again (cold) and kept pumping the top
>>> radiator hose, which seemed to get rid of still more air -- coolant
>>> bottle fluid level dropping even with the bleed valve closed. Since
>>> using the "special tool" filler funnel (which I don't have) according to
>>> the manual releases a small amount of coolant into the overflow chamber,
>>> I let some coolant flow into it before I started the engine.
>>>
>>> I then ran it for about 15 minutes at engine speeds between 500 and
>>> 2000rpm, and it was just getting up toward the red (rather sudden
>>> increase from sitting around half-scale). The coolant level in the
>>> overflow compartment of the bottle was higher then.
>>>
>>> Still no heat in the cabin.
>>>
>>> BTW, I read somewhere today that modern thermostats rarely stick closed:
>>> they are designed to fail open.
>>>
>>> On 08/11/12 09:35 pm, Rob wrote:
>>>> Ditto......
>>>>
>>>> as long as he's not getting any bubbles in his coolant at cold, he's
>>>> bled
>>>> the system, and not getting any steam out the tailpipe or coolant in
>>>> the
>>>> oil, then I am aiming for the same thing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Mopar > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ". When Engine is cold: Thermostat is closed, cool-
>>>>>> ing system has no flow through the radiator. The
>>>>>> coolant flows through the engine, heater core, coolant
>>>>>> bottle and an internal engine by-pass.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's the case for most cars that coolant always flows
>>>>> through
>>>>> the heater core regardless what the thermostat is doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that on my 300m that in the winter (when the car has been in
>>>>> the
>>>>> garage overnight with the garage temp at about 45 - 50 F and outside
>>>>> temp in the 10's or 20's) that if I turn the heat on, I will feel some
>>>>> luke-warm air after about 1 minute of driving - and the needle of the
>>>>> temp guage pointing to the first mark on the dial. After 2 or 3
>>>>> minutes
>>>>> of driving, the air is blowing hot.
>>>>>
>>>>> About 2 years ago I had the timing belt changed on my 300m - and along
>>>>> with that the water pump was changed too (no reason other than it was
>>>>> easy to do with not much added cost). I have the original pump (and
>>>>> belt). The new pump was made by Fenco.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have to say that in your case - the pump must have failed. The
>>>>> impeller must be free-wheeling and not doing any pumping.
>>>
>>
>

"Percival P. Cassidy" top-poasted and full-quoted:

> Still no heat in the cabin. Top hose hot, bottom hose barely warm.

Take the thermostat out, then run the engine without it.

> possible water pump failure. I still have my old water pump
> somewhere but can't put my hand on it, so I can't see precisely
> how it is constructed. But wouldn't the impeller and the pulley
> both be keyed to or shrunk onto the shaft.

The impeller doesn't look like it's keyed. Just some kind of press-fit.

At least that's how the original chrysler pump looks.

On 08/13/12 08:48 am, MoPar Man wrote:
> "Percival P. Cassidy" top-poasted and full-quoted:
>
>> Still no heat in the cabin. Top hose hot, bottom hose barely warm.
>
> Take the thermostat out, then run the engine without it.
>
>> possible water pump failure. I still have my old water pump
>> somewhere but can't put my hand on it, so I can't see precisely
>> how it is constructed. But wouldn't the impeller and the pulley
>> both be keyed to or shrunk onto the shaft.
>
> The impeller doesn't look like it's keyed. Just some kind of press-fit.
>
> At least that's how the original chrysler pump looks.

Sorry about the full quoting. I top-posted because I was replying to
Rob, who did. Intermingled top- and bottom-posting can get very confusing.

I see that the service manual's diagnostic check for water-pump failure
is to check for cabin heat: no heat may indicate water-pump failure.

I found a detailed description (with pictures) on line of replacing the
water pump on a 300M, but it looks messy, and I don't know that I'm
ready to tackle it. (BTW, he says that the original impeller was plastic
-- as ISTR mine was -- but the new one he installed looked like metal.)
I'm inclined to go back to the shop that replaced the water pump along
with the timing belt, etc. about 25K miles ago, because there *might*
have been a "limited lifetime warranty" on the pump itself (as I see on
some of the after-market ones), and they *might* give me a break on the
labor charge as well in the circumstances. I don't think I want to
entrust it to my neighbor's friend who admits to drilling extra holes in
thermostat housings as a means of dealing with problems.

Perce

I've done 3 of them. they are cake with the exception of your timing belt
tensioner which I have worked out a cheat on that too. that would take too
long to explain though.

the main thing is draining coolant, pulling top radiator support, then
hoses, fans, and the radiator itself. once you get that out it's just a
matter of pulling the two covers over the timing belt housing, and releasing
the timing belt tension so you can get the belt off the water pump.

which I still had access to my alldata account for the LHS, the pics would
make it easier. since I no longer own it, I didn't subscribe this year.

This has been a source of great info for the cost. and each year after its
cheaper, plus you can print out the info and pictures to carry it out into
the garage, or just take a laptop out there with you.
http://alldatadiy.com/buy/



"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> On 08/13/12 08:48 am, MoPar Man wrote:
>> "Percival P. Cassidy" top-poasted and full-quoted:
>>
>>> Still no heat in the cabin. Top hose hot, bottom hose barely warm.
>>
>> Take the thermostat out, then run the engine without it.
>>
>>> possible water pump failure. I still have my old water pump
>>> somewhere but can't put my hand on it, so I can't see precisely
>>> how it is constructed. But wouldn't the impeller and the pulley
>>> both be keyed to or shrunk onto the shaft.
>>
>> The impeller doesn't look like it's keyed. Just some kind of press-fit.
>>
>> At least that's how the original chrysler pump looks.
>
> Sorry about the full quoting. I top-posted because I was replying to Rob,
> who did. Intermingled top- and bottom-posting can get very confusing.
>
> I see that the service manual's diagnostic check for water-pump failure is
> to check for cabin heat: no heat may indicate water-pump failure.
>
> I found a detailed description (with pictures) on line of replacing the
> water pump on a 300M, but it looks messy, and I don't know that I'm ready
> to tackle it. (BTW, he says that the original impeller was plastic -- as
> ISTR mine was -- but the new one he installed looked like metal.) I'm
> inclined to go back to the shop that replaced the water pump along with
> the timing belt, etc. about 25K miles ago, because there *might* have been
> a "limited lifetime warranty" on the pump itself (as I see on some of the
> after-market ones), and they *might* give me a break on the labor charge
> as well in the circumstances. I don't think I want to entrust it to my
> neighbor's friend who admits to drilling extra holes in thermostat
> housings as a means of dealing with problems.
>
> Perce

On 08/13/12 10:43 am, I wrote:

>>> Still no heat in the cabin. Top hose hot, bottom hose barely warm.
>>
>> Take the thermostat out, then run the engine without it.
>>
>>> possible water pump failure. I still have my old water pump
>>> somewhere but can't put my hand on it, so I can't see precisely
>>> how it is constructed. But wouldn't the impeller and the pulley
>>> both be keyed to or shrunk onto the shaft.
>>
>> The impeller doesn't look like it's keyed. Just some kind of press-fit.
>>
>> At least that's how the original chrysler pump looks.

> I see that the service manual's diagnostic check for water-pump failure
> is to check for cabin heat: no heat may indicate water-pump failure.
>
> I found a detailed description (with pictures) on line of replacing the
> water pump on a 300M, but it looks messy, and I don't know that I'm
> ready to tackle it. (BTW, he says that the original impeller was plastic
> -- as ISTR mine was -- but the new one he installed looked like metal.)
> I'm inclined to go back to the shop that replaced the water pump along
> with the timing belt, etc. about 25K miles ago, because there *might*
> have been a "limited lifetime warranty" on the pump itself (as I see on
> some of the after-market ones), and they *might* give me a break on the
> labor charge as well in the circumstances. I don't think I want to
> entrust it to my neighbor's friend who admits to drilling extra holes in
> thermostat housings as a means of dealing with problems.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oops! I mean "thermostat bodies."

Perce

Here's the Web site I mentioned:

> http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=211602

He says that on one of the three water-pump replacements he did he
didn't even remove the fans, let alone the radiator.

How long did it take you to do the job the first time? Any idea what the
"official" time for the job is? My wife says, "Take the car somewhere to
have it done", but I'm thinking that it's not as difficult a task as I
had thought: I had thought that the drive pulley on the end of the
crankshaft had to be pulled, but I see that that is not so. And if I
reuse the timing belt, which is only 25K miles old, I don't have the
hassle of taking it off and trying to put a new one on -- which took the
other guy 2hr the first time.

Perce


On 08/13/12 05:14 pm, Rob wrote:

> I've done 3 of them. they are cake with the exception of your timing belt
> tensioner which I have worked out a cheat on that too. that would take too
> long to explain though.
>
> the main thing is draining coolant, pulling top radiator support, then
> hoses, fans, and the radiator itself. once you get that out it's just a
> matter of pulling the two covers over the timing belt housing, and releasing
> the timing belt tension so you can get the belt off the water pump.
>
> which I still had access to my alldata account for the LHS, the pics would
> make it easier. since I no longer own it, I didn't subscribe this year.
>
> This has been a source of great info for the cost. and each year after its
> cheaper, plus you can print out the info and pictures to carry it out into
> the garage, or just take a laptop out there with you.
> http://alldatadiy.com/buy/

>> I see that the service manual's diagnostic check for water-pump failure is
>> to check for cabin heat: no heat may indicate water-pump failure.
>>
>> I found a detailed description (with pictures) on line of replacing the
>> water pump on a 300M, but it looks messy, and I don't know that I'm ready
>> to tackle it. (BTW, he says that the original impeller was plastic -- as
>> ISTR mine was -- but the new one he installed looked like metal.) I'm
>> inclined to go back to the shop that replaced the water pump along with
>> the timing belt, etc. about 25K miles ago, because there *might* have been
>> a "limited lifetime warranty" on the pump itself (as I see on some of the
>> after-market ones), and they *might* give me a break on the labor charge
>> as well in the circumstances. I don't think I want to entrust it to my
>> neighbor's friend who admits to drilling extra holes in thermostat
>> bodies as a means of dealing with problems.

the first time took me two days because I had broken the timing belt, I
couldn't find the timing mark on the crank. and also I couldn't get anyone
to give me a clear answer as to whether or not the 3.5 is an interference
engine. mine was a first generation so it was not. the 2nd gen is I think.

but 2nd time it was around 4-5. took out the drive belts, and fans but not
the radiator. mainly just for clearance. Took my time with it to make sure
I did it right, and ran to the store to get new hoses at one point.

the timing belt doesn't need to come off, just loosened as it wraps around
the water pump.

keep in mind this is for a 1st gen engine in a Concorde/LHS/ New Yorker and
intrepid. So some bolts may be in different spots.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robs446...7631058831272/

"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> Here's the Web site I mentioned:
>
> > http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=211602
>
> He says that on one of the three water-pump replacements he did he didn't
> even remove the fans, let alone the radiator.
>
> How long did it take you to do the job the first time? Any idea what the
> "official" time for the job is? My wife says, "Take the car somewhere to
> have it done", but I'm thinking that it's not as difficult a task as I had
> thought: I had thought that the drive pulley on the end of the crankshaft
> had to be pulled, but I see that that is not so. And if I reuse the timing
> belt, which is only 25K miles old, I don't have the hassle of taking it
> off and trying to put a new one on -- which took the other guy 2hr the
> first time.
>
> Perce
>
>
> On 08/13/12 05:14 pm, Rob wrote:
>
>> I've done 3 of them. they are cake with the exception of your timing
>> belt
>> tensioner which I have worked out a cheat on that too. that would take
>> too
>> long to explain though.
>>
>> the main thing is draining coolant, pulling top radiator support, then
>> hoses, fans, and the radiator itself. once you get that out it's just a
>> matter of pulling the two covers over the timing belt housing, and
>> releasing
>> the timing belt tension so you can get the belt off the water pump.
>>
>> which I still had access to my alldata account for the LHS, the pics
>> would
>> make it easier. since I no longer own it, I didn't subscribe this year.
>>
>> This has been a source of great info for the cost. and each year after
>> its
>> cheaper, plus you can print out the info and pictures to carry it out
>> into
>> the garage, or just take a laptop out there with you.
>> http://alldatadiy.com/buy/
>
>>> I see that the service manual's diagnostic check for water-pump failure
>>> is
>>> to check for cabin heat: no heat may indicate water-pump failure.
>>>
>>> I found a detailed description (with pictures) on line of replacing the
>>> water pump on a 300M, but it looks messy, and I don't know that I'm
>>> ready
>>> to tackle it. (BTW, he says that the original impeller was plastic -- as
>>> ISTR mine was -- but the new one he installed looked like metal.) I'm
>>> inclined to go back to the shop that replaced the water pump along with
>>> the timing belt, etc. about 25K miles ago, because there *might* have
>>> been
>>> a "limited lifetime warranty" on the pump itself (as I see on some of
>>> the
>>> after-market ones), and they *might* give me a break on the labor charge
>>> as well in the circumstances. I don't think I want to entrust it to my
>>> neighbor's friend who admits to drilling extra holes in thermostat
>>> bodies as a means of dealing with problems.
>