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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 2nd 06, 06:28 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring.
Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it
has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No
matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum,
rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had
a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had
installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and
I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in
cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is
driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it,
so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor
was pointing midway between #1 and #6.

There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks
the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to
set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on
top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but
please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I
am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an
engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish
troubleshooting it.

Thanks.
--

Bill Lahr

Ads
  #2  
Old April 2nd 06, 06:53 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front
of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise.

Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the
distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just
slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different
advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the
delco remy.

Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust
stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the
compression as it comes up.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Bill Lahr wrote:
>
> I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring.
> Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it
> has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No
> matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum,
> rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had
> a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had
> installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and
> I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in
> cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is
> driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it,
> so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor
> was pointing midway between #1 and #6.
>
> There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks
> the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to
> set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on
> top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but
> please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I
> am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an
> engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish
> troubleshooting it.
>
> Thanks.
> --
>
> Bill Lahr
>

  #3  
Old April 2nd 06, 07:57 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

Milke,

Thanks. It is difficult to tell from a book. I have a Haynes manual, but
the drawing isn't that clear and it doesn't have any details on the
early GM engines, only the similar Dauntless V6. The rotor is wide on
the Oddfire distributor and mine will either center on #1 at TDC on the
compression stroke or point between #1 and #6. If you have one of these
engines (Delco distributor), could you pop the cap and look at where the
centerline of the rotor points at TDC? There is a small notch on the
distributor that represents the #1 position. One would assume it would
point to that mark, not past it.

Bill

Mike Romain wrote:
> My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front
> of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise.
>
> Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the
> distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just
> slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different
> advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the
> delco remy.
>
> Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust
> stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the
> compression as it comes up.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>
> Bill Lahr wrote:
>
>>I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring.
>>Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it
>>has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No
>>matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum,
>>rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had
>>a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had
>>installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and
>>I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in
>>cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is
>>driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it,
>>so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor
>>was pointing midway between #1 and #6.
>>
>>There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks
>>the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to
>>set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on
>>top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but
>>please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I
>>am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an
>>engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish
>>troubleshooting it.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>--
>>
>>Bill Lahr



--

Bill Lahr

  #4  
Old April 2nd 06, 08:25 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

Sorry I don't own one.

It is normal for the rotor to be slightly past #1 if the timing is set
at 5 or more degrees BTDC. What that means is the rotor will hit the
contact before the engine hits TDC so when the engine finally is at Top,
the rotor has past the contact post for #1 wire.

The fire happens when the metal part of the rotor first hits the post on
the cap or just when the points first crack open.

You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done
with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will
be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points for a
static test will tell too. Set the distributor nut down at first
flicker.

You should have a notch on the flywheel that indicates TDC also.

I don't understand how your rotor can point to both places. Either it
is right on the center of the post for the wire if you have the
prestolite distributor or it is inbetween 1 and 6 for the delco remy.

You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done
with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will
be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points will tell
too. Set the distributor at first flicker.

The one that catches most folks is the two different top dead centers
the #1 piston has with one 360 rotor rotation.

Mike

Bill Lahr wrote:
>
> Milke,
>
> Thanks. It is difficult to tell from a book. I have a Haynes manual, but
> the drawing isn't that clear and it doesn't have any details on the
> early GM engines, only the similar Dauntless V6. The rotor is wide on
> the Oddfire distributor and mine will either center on #1 at TDC on the
> compression stroke or point between #1 and #6. If you have one of these
> engines (Delco distributor), could you pop the cap and look at where the
> centerline of the rotor points at TDC? There is a small notch on the
> distributor that represents the #1 position. One would assume it would
> point to that mark, not past it.
>
> Bill
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> > My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front
> > of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise.
> >
> > Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the
> > distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just
> > slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different
> > advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the
> > delco remy.
> >
> > Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust
> > stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the
> > compression as it comes up.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> >
> > Bill Lahr wrote:
> >
> >>I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring.
> >>Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it
> >>has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No
> >>matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum,
> >>rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had
> >>a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had
> >>installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and
> >>I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in
> >>cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is
> >>driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it,
> >>so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor
> >>was pointing midway between #1 and #6.
> >>
> >>There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks
> >>the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to
> >>set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on
> >>top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but
> >>please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I
> >>am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an
> >>engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish
> >>troubleshooting it.
> >>
> >>Thanks.
> >>--
> >>
> >>Bill Lahr
>

>
> --
>
> Bill Lahr
>

  #5  
Old April 2nd 06, 11:01 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

Hi Bill,
There's a great possibility if it's not been started after the
chain was replace that the cam sprocket is reversed, as it's one for V6
and the other for V8. If correct the intake will begin to open 24
degrees before top dead center.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Bill Lahr wrote:
>
> I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring.
> Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it
> has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No
> matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum,
> rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had
> a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had
> installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and
> I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in
> cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is
> driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it,
> so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor
> was pointing midway between #1 and #6.
>
> There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks
> the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to
> set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on
> top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but
> please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I
> am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an
> engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish
> troubleshooting it.
>
> Thanks.
> --
>
> Bill Lahr
>

  #6  
Old April 2nd 06, 11:44 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

Have that engine with Rochester 4bbl in the boat ,,, service bulletin
says:

1. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation until the timing mark
on the crankshaft balancer lines up with "0" (TDC) on timing tab and
engine is in #1 firing position.
2. Look closely at the cam in the distributor. Three lobes have sharper
profile than the other three (sharp, round, sharp, round, ... 1 (132
dgrees) 6 (108 degrees) 5 (132 degrees) ... and so on ... )
3. Install the distributor so that when the rotor is aligned with with
the #1 spark plug tower, a rounded lobe is aligned with the rubbing
block of the breaker points.
4. Secure distributor with clamp and check engine timing with timing
light. For what it's worth I set my timing at 8 degrees and use Shell
Silver 89 octane.

  #7  
Old April 3rd 06, 12:14 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

The relationship between the GM cap lock screws may help:
http://www.billhughes.com/temp/buickv6fire.jpg
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O


bowgus wrote:
>
> Have that engine with Rochester 4bbl in the boat ,,, service bulletin
> says:
>
> 1. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation until the timing mark
> on the crankshaft balancer lines up with "0" (TDC) on timing tab and
> engine is in #1 firing position.
> 2. Look closely at the cam in the distributor. Three lobes have sharper
> profile than the other three (sharp, round, sharp, round, ... 1 (132
> dgrees) 6 (108 degrees) 5 (132 degrees) ... and so on ... )
> 3. Install the distributor so that when the rotor is aligned with with
> the #1 spark plug tower, a rounded lobe is aligned with the rubbing
> block of the breaker points.
> 4. Secure distributor with clamp and check engine timing with timing
> light. For what it's worth I set my timing at 8 degrees and use Shell
> Silver 89 octane.

  #8  
Old April 3rd 06, 01:10 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

Perhaps he does not understand how to correct the problem if he is one tooth
when the distributor was installed.

If it is one tooth off it may still be timeable if the distributor can be
rotated sufficiently.

Check the timing, with a light, while cranking. If you are one tooth off
you may have to search to find the mark. I used to rub chalk or paint the
marks with nail polish for visibility.

I do not know if this V-6 is an interference engine. Do you know Bill?

Note where the rotor points while installed.
Carefully and slowly remove distributor
Note where rotor now points.
Rotate rotor one tooth in the appropriate direction
Slowly re-insert distributor
Rotor should point directly to cylinder #1 terminal
Check timing.

Do you have a timing light? If not you can do it manually by setting the
timing mark at the appropriate advance and rotating the distributor until
you get a spark.


"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry I don't own one.
>
> It is normal for the rotor to be slightly past #1 if the timing is set
> at 5 or more degrees BTDC. What that means is the rotor will hit the
> contact before the engine hits TDC so when the engine finally is at Top,
> the rotor has past the contact post for #1 wire.
>
> The fire happens when the metal part of the rotor first hits the post on
> the cap or just when the points first crack open.
>
> You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done
> with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will
> be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points for a
> static test will tell too. Set the distributor nut down at first
> flicker.
>
> You should have a notch on the flywheel that indicates TDC also.
>
> I don't understand how your rotor can point to both places. Either it
> is right on the center of the post for the wire if you have the
> prestolite distributor or it is inbetween 1 and 6 for the delco remy.
>
> You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done
> with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will
> be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points will tell
> too. Set the distributor at first flicker.
>
> The one that catches most folks is the two different top dead centers
> the #1 piston has with one 360 rotor rotation.
>
> Mike
>
> Bill Lahr wrote:
>>
>> Milke,
>>
>> Thanks. It is difficult to tell from a book. I have a Haynes manual, but
>> the drawing isn't that clear and it doesn't have any details on the
>> early GM engines, only the similar Dauntless V6. The rotor is wide on
>> the Oddfire distributor and mine will either center on #1 at TDC on the
>> compression stroke or point between #1 and #6. If you have one of these
>> engines (Delco distributor), could you pop the cap and look at where the
>> centerline of the rotor points at TDC? There is a small notch on the
>> distributor that represents the #1 position. One would assume it would
>> point to that mark, not past it.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Mike Romain wrote:
>> > My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the
>> > front
>> > of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise.
>> >
>> > Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the
>> > distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just
>> > slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different
>> > advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the
>> > delco remy.
>> >
>> > Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust
>> > stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the
>> > compression as it comes up.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
>> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
>> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
>> >
>> > Bill Lahr wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring.
>> >>Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it
>> >>has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No
>> >>matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum,
>> >>rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance
>> >>had
>> >>a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner
>> >>had
>> >>installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it,
>> >>and
>> >>I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in
>> >>cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is
>> >>driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove
>> >>it,
>> >>so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor
>> >>was pointing midway between #1 and #6.
>> >>
>> >>There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that
>> >>marks
>> >>the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to
>> >>set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on
>> >>top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but
>> >>please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but
>> >>I
>> >>am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an
>> >>engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish
>> >>troubleshooting it.
>> >>
>> >>Thanks.
>> >>--
>> >>
>> >>Bill Lahr
>>

>>
>> --
>>
>> Bill Lahr
>>



  #9  
Old April 3rd 06, 01:16 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

Hi Bill,
The Nash straight six is the only overhead valve engine I know of,
that's pistons won't hit the valves, if the cam stops turning.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

billy ray wrote:
><snip>
>
> I do not know if this V-6 is an interference engine. Do you know Bill?

  #10  
Old April 3rd 06, 05:56 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

Thanks to all of you. I can rotate the distributor body enough to line
it up at #1 or between #1 and #6, depending upon how I seat the shaft.
There are some hoses and the vacuum advance that limit the adjustment. I
am assuming the guy who gave me the Jeep installed the new timing chain
properly, since he worked for Hillcrest Cadillac in LA for a time,
restoring the antique cars for the Willet H. Brown collection. Some were
valued at more than $600,000. (Typical mechanic, fix other peoples'
stuff and let yours go to pot.)

Yes, I have a timing light, but I wanted to set it with a meter to
roughly 5BTDC before I attempt to start it. The oddfire distributor is
strange.

As to the cam lobes, this is of no importance because the rotor cap is
keyed and can only fit one way. I set the point gap at .022, but there
is a door on the side of the distributor cap that will let me adjust the
dwell once it is running. I have an aftermarket capacitor discharge
ignition system for it so the dwell isn't that important.

The jeep sat outside for over ten years with water in the radiator. The
block, heads and intake manifold are cast iron. I had to use a hammer
and chisel to open up the water passages, then followed it with Prestone
Super Flush "for neglected cooling systems." It did a nice job of
removing the rust. Water seems to be flowing fine now. Once the
treatments are done, it will be filled with coolant and water. Ithas a
Cadillac radiator, so it shouldn't overheat. The jeep qualified as a
basket case, but I am 99% sure I can get it running again.

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote:
> The relationship between the GM cap lock screws may help:
> http://www.billhughes.com/temp/buickv6fire.jpg
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>
>
> bowgus wrote:
>
>>Have that engine with Rochester 4bbl in the boat ,,, service bulletin
>>says:
>>
>>1. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation until the timing mark
>>on the crankshaft balancer lines up with "0" (TDC) on timing tab and
>>engine is in #1 firing position.
>>2. Look closely at the cam in the distributor. Three lobes have sharper
>>profile than the other three (sharp, round, sharp, round, ... 1 (132
>>dgrees) 6 (108 degrees) 5 (132 degrees) ... and so on ... )
>>3. Install the distributor so that when the rotor is aligned with with
>>the #1 spark plug tower, a rounded lobe is aligned with the rubbing
>>block of the breaker points.
>>4. Secure distributor with clamp and check engine timing with timing
>>light. For what it's worth I set my timing at 8 degrees and use Shell
>>Silver 89 octane.



--

Bill Lahr

 




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