Another WWJD

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:19:17 -0700, Scott en Aztlán
> wrote:

>As we all know, ramp metering signals are intended to space out cars
>that are entering the freeway and make merging easier. Clearly, there
>is nothing to be gained by making the FIRST car in a cluster stop for
>the ramp metering signal; after all, it may have been several minutes
>or even several hours since the last car came through. If a driver who
>KNOWS that no other car has come through recently decides to simply
>blow through the red metering signal instead of making an unnecesasary
>stop, should that driver get a ticket?
>
>What Would Jaybird Do?

What will happen is that the person behind him will push him out of
the frickin way. Or at least they should.

Sounds like the design of these metering ramp signals, if they are
supposed to function as described (preventing groups of vehicles from
entering more or less all at once by spacing out the entry time of
vehicles onto the ramp) is (SURPRIZE!) screwed up.
Sounds like the signal should be default green, then as a vehicle
passes it (tripping the sensor), it should go to a red phase, length of
this phase dependant on the level of traffic on the freeway (if
practically no traffic, say at night, then skip the red phase). This
clearly address the OP's concern (if no vehicles entered for a while,
then the first one of a new group gets in without stopping) while
retaining the stop/go (er, metering) spacing of the following vehicles
in the group.
So, let's hear what's wrong with my analysis...

"Sir Ray" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Sounds like the design of these metering ramp signals, if they are
> supposed to function as described (preventing groups of vehicles from
> entering more or less all at once by spacing out the entry time of
> vehicles onto the ramp) is (SURPRIZE!) screwed up.
> Sounds like the signal should be default green, then as a vehicle
> passes it (tripping the sensor), it should go to a red phase, length of
> this phase dependant on the level of traffic on the freeway (if
> practically no traffic, say at night, then skip the red phase). This
> clearly address the OP's concern (if no vehicles entered for a while,
> then the first one of a new group gets in without stopping) while
> retaining the stop/go (er, metering) spacing of the following vehicles
> in the group.
> So, let's hear what's wrong with my analysis...
>

Easy. You can't ticket someone for running a green light. C'mon man, give
us a CHALLENGE at least

Mike T. wrote:
> "Sir Ray" > wrote in message
> > So, let's hear what's wrong with my analysis...
> >
>
> Easy. You can't ticket someone for running a green light. C'mon man, give
> us a CHALLENGE at least

OK, what's wrong from an engineering standpoint...

Sir Ray wrote:
> Mike T. wrote:
> > "Sir Ray" > wrote in message
> > > So, let's hear what's wrong with my analysis...
> > >
> >
> > Easy. You can't ticket someone for running a green light. C'mon man, give
> > us a CHALLENGE at least
>
> OK, what's wrong from an engineering standpoint...

Hint- cast a glimpse toward an entrance ramp during a period of high
traffic volume. How are you going to stop vehicles 2 through 30?
-----

- gpsman

>> > So, let's hear what's wrong with my analysis...
>> >
>>
>> Easy. You can't ticket someone for running a green light. C'mon man,
>> give
>> us a CHALLENGE at least
>
> OK, what's wrong from an engineering standpoint...
>

Easy, the traffic engineers don't get kickbacks for tailoring their designs
to match political goals (of revenue collection). THAT'S what's wrong with
it from an engineering standpoint...

(I guess you thought traffic engineers were concerned with things like
maximizing traffic throughput and traffic safety? Nope, money talks in that
crowd also)

> Hint- cast a glimpse toward an entrance ramp during a period of high
> traffic volume. How are you going to stop vehicles 2 through 30?
> -----
>
> - gpsman
>

Well last I checked, red meant stop. What was the question again? -Dave

"Mike T." > wrote in message
reenews.net...
> > Hint- cast a glimpse toward an entrance ramp during a period of high
> > traffic volume. How are you going to stop vehicles 2 through 30?
> > -----
> >
> > - gpsman
> >
>
> Well last I checked, red meant stop. What was the question again? -Dave
>
>
The original question that started this thread, in fact, was phrased more or
less as: driver is the first and only car on the onramp, so he runs the red
signal, and should the cop use "discretion" if he sees that the driver just
ran the red signal?

So now extend *that* mentality to cars 2 through 30, because at any given
moment, one of them will be the first car, even if they aren't the only car.
If they all run the red signal, ticket or not ticket, that's a major traffic
jam waiting to happen at the minimum.

Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> >
> > Well last I checked, red meant stop. What was the question again? -Dave
> >
> >
> The original question that started this thread, in fact, was phrased more or
> less as: driver is the first and only car on the onramp, so he runs the red
> signal, and should the cop use "discretion" if he sees that the driver just
> ran the red signal?
>
> So now extend *that* mentality to cars 2 through 30, because at any given
> moment, one of them will be the first car, even if they aren't the only car.
> If they all run the red signal, ticket or not ticket, that's a major traffic
> jam waiting to happen at the minimum.
That's what the OP did state, but what I suggested was the metering
light should be a green by default, and only switch to a (time varying)
red phase when a vehicle passes. Therefore, the first vehicle in a
while is not stopped by a (unnecessary) metered red phase, and the
subsequent vehicles in the group are metered by the red/green phases of
the light. If one vehicle blows through a red, then they are liable
for a (sucky) citation. After the group passes (i.e. no further
vehicles trigger the sensor), then the light returns to it's default
green phase. The OP's scenerio fades away, the first vehicle in the
group breaks no law as the light is in a green phase, and Jaybird is
not waken from his tax-payer financed nap :P

"Sir Ray" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> >
>> > Well last I checked, red meant stop. What was the question
>> > gain? -Dave
>> >
>> >
>> The original question that started this thread, in fact, was phrased more
>> or
>> less as: driver is the first and only car on the onramp, so he runs the
>> red
>> signal, and should the cop use "discretion" if he sees that the driver
>> just
>> ran the red signal?
>>
>> So now extend *that* mentality to cars 2 through 30, because at any given
>> moment, one of them will be the first car, even if they aren't the only
>> car.
>> If they all run the red signal, ticket or not ticket, that's a major
>> traffic
>> jam waiting to happen at the minimum.
> That's what the OP did state, but what I suggested was the metering
> light should be a green by default, and only switch to a (time varying)
> red phase when a vehicle passes. Therefore, the first vehicle in a
> while is not stopped by a (unnecessary) metered red phase, and the
> subsequent vehicles in the group are metered by the red/green phases of
> the light. If one vehicle blows through a red, then they are liable
> for a (sucky) citation. After the group passes (i.e. no further
> vehicles trigger the sensor), then the light returns to it's default
> green phase. The OP's scenerio fades away, the first vehicle in the
> group breaks no law as the light is in a green phase, and Jaybird is
> not waken from his tax-payer financed nap :P

Perhaps I'm not understanding your "solution" correctly, so let me break it
down:

1) The metering light should be green by default until a car passes

2) At that time, it turns to red so the cars behind the first car now have
to wait for a phase change one by one

I'm not sure what ramps look like where you're from, but here's how they
tend to look here in SoCal during times when traffic gets metered... big
break and traffic and then a LONG queue of cars heads up the ramp, one right
after another... usually as a result of a signal change at the bottom of
the ramp.

So, if I'm reading your proposal correctly, the 2nd car, which just a couple
car lenghts behind the first car, would be expected to *instantly* stop as
the phase would immediately change to red as soon as the 1st car passes.
The queue of cars, each of which is likely within a few car lengths of each
other, would then be required by physics to suddenly perform the same abrupt
stop, or some quick evasive maneuvers at least...

Gee, I wonder what could be wrong with your "solution"...

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