Differences and Opinions between 70 Cleveland and Windsor Engines

Could I get some insight on the differences and the opinions from this
group on which is the best engine and why?
Al

"Albert Einstein" > wrote in message
...
> Could I get some insight on the differences and the opinions from this
> group on which is the best engine and why?
> Al

For what use? 2V or 4V Cleveland? The Windsor is more of a low RPM engine.
Starting from nothing, the 351W is a lot less expensive to acquire, there
are lots of heads and intakes available to make one run.

For a hot street machine, the 460 is King.

Al

Yea, I'm going to drop a 460 in the '70 fastback I just bought.


--
I'm a mechanic, not a weight lifter. The wrench is my weight. I'm sure glad
I have air tools in my garage now.
"Big Al" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Albert Einstein" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Could I get some insight on the differences and the opinions from this
>> group on which is the best engine and why?
>> Al
>
> For what use? 2V or 4V Cleveland? The Windsor is more of a low RPM engine.
> Starting from nothing, the 351W is a lot less expensive to acquire, there
> are lots of heads and intakes available to make one run.
>
> For a hot street machine, the 460 is King.
>
> Al
>

Albert Einstein wrote:
> Could I get some insight on the differences and the opinions from
this
> group on which is the best engine and why?
> Al

First came the Challenger V8, in 260, 289, and 302 cubic inch versions.
The Challenger's heads had the valves all in a line, a configuration
commonly referred to as a "wedge" head. This design limits valve size,
and hence air flow, because the valves are not centered in the bore.

In 1969 came the tall deck (9.2" iirc) 351 version of the Challenger.
Most parts were interchangeable with the Challenger, in particular the
heads (although the 351 heads have bigger bolt holes).

In 1970 came the 351 Cleveland. This was a completely new design and
has no parts in common with the Challenger. At this time the tall deck
Challenger started being called the Windsor, to keep it separate from
the Cleveland. The big difference between the Cleveland and the
Windsor -- and between the Cleveland and ALL small blocks -- is that it
runs a splayed valve head, like Chevy had introduced in 1965 in the 396
big block. The splayed layout moves the valves closer to the center of
the bore, allowing bigger valves. Whereas a hi po Windsor or small
block Chevy head would have intake valves of 1.94" or 2.02" or at most
2.05", the "economy" 2-bbl version of the Cleveland had 2.05" and the
4-bbl had 2.1-something.
So that's the biggest difference.

180 Out
TS 28

Don't forget that the bore spacing remains constant as does head bolt
location. Before the current onslought of aluminum performance heads, a well
built 351 Clevor was a strong motor.

Thanks to everyone with their comments. I am currently in the process
of restoring a 70 Mach with a 351 Cleveland. The car has a 4V on it
and runs nice.
Al
On 15 Jan 2005 22:53:51 -0800, wrote:

>
>Albert Einstein wrote:
>> Could I get some insight on the differences and the opinions from
>this
>> group on which is the best engine and why?
>> Al
>
>First came the Challenger V8, in 260, 289, and 302 cubic inch versions.
>The Challenger's heads had the valves all in a line, a configuration
>commonly referred to as a "wedge" head. This design limits valve size,
>and hence air flow, because the valves are not centered in the bore.
>
>In 1969 came the tall deck (9.2" iirc) 351 version of the Challenger.
>Most parts were interchangeable with the Challenger, in particular the
>heads (although the 351 heads have bigger bolt holes).
>
>In 1970 came the 351 Cleveland. This was a completely new design and
>has no parts in common with the Challenger. At this time the tall deck
>Challenger started being called the Windsor, to keep it separate from
>the Cleveland. The big difference between the Cleveland and the
>Windsor -- and between the Cleveland and ALL small blocks -- is that it
>runs a splayed valve head, like Chevy had introduced in 1965 in the 396
>big block. The splayed layout moves the valves closer to the center of
>the bore, allowing bigger valves. Whereas a hi po Windsor or small
>block Chevy head would have intake valves of 1.94" or 2.02" or at most
>2.05", the "economy" 2-bbl version of the Cleveland had 2.05" and the
>4-bbl had 2.1-something.
>So that's the biggest difference.
>
>180 Out
>TS 28

Heads can also be mixed, but cooling passage modifications have to be
performed.

bradtx

Albert Einstein wrote:
> Could I get some insight on the differences and the opinions from this
> group on which is the best engine and why?
> Al

FYI, A little history: Production of the 351C began with the 1970 model
year and ended during the 1974 model year. To keep up with the market
demand for engines in the 350 cubic inch class (which apparently Ford
couldn't do with its production of the 351 Windsor alone), the 351M was
developed.

Interestingly, the 351 Cleveland built such a strong performance
reputation and market appeal that Ford referred to the 351M as a "351
Cleveland" in their own marketing literature for at least the first
couple years after the 351M was introduced. Ultimately, this led to a
lot of confusion, and even a mistaken belief among some pickup truck
owners that their trucks had 351 Cleveland engines. In fact, the only
trucks ever equipped with a 351 Cleveland engine by the factory were
1970-74 Rancheros, which shared the Torino's platform and power train
options. Many auto models were available with the 351C engine including
the Mustang, Cougar, Torino and Pantera.

The 351C was able to produce very good low-end torque and yet it could
pump out serious horsepower all the way to 6,500 RPM. The 351C was
light, powerful, extremely rugged, and got better gas mileage (in that
era) than most other engines 2/3 it’s size. SAE Gross (aka Brake)
horsepower ratings for the 351C 4V in 1970 are 300 HP @ 5400 RPM. Torque
for the 351C 4V is 380 lb-ft @ 3400 RPM.

The 351 Cleveland belongs to Ford's 335 engine family. The 351C was
based on the design of the 385-series big blocks, but it was smaller and
lighter. The 351C features different heads for 2V & 4V versions.
Cleveland 4V heads feature larger ports/valves than the Cleveland 2V
heads. The Cleveland 4V heads also feature a closed or quench-type
combustion chamber - 2V heads feature an open combustion chamber. The
351C 4V heads essentially descended from Boss 302 heads.

Now, some info related to differences between 351W and 351C:

The most significant difference between the 351W and the 351C is the
heads. The Cleveland heads are what make this engine. Cleveland 4V heads
feature HUGE canted valves - intake head diameter ~2.19, exhaust head
diameter ~1.71. Valves this large are only possible via a canted valve
arrangement, forming what Ford referred to as a "poly-angle" combustion
chamber. A comparable 351W head features ~1.8" intake and ~1.5" exhaust
valve head diameters.

Other differences are as follows:

Intake manifolds, camshafts and crankshafts are not interchangable
between 351W and 351C.

351W
6-bolt valve covers
Thermostat housing bolted to the front of the intake manifold (coolant
passes through the intake manifold)
5/8" spark plugs
Bolts securing fuel pump to block are horizontal in relationship to each
other

351C
8 bolt valve covers
Thermostat housing is on the block extension which contains the timing chain
14mm spark plugs
Bolts securing fuel pump to block are vertical in relationship to each other

Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C 4V @
http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt

>which is the best engine and why?

I like Clevelands because most others prefer the Windsor.
The Cleveland was only produced for 3 or 4 years so it is truely a unique and
nostalgic powerplant.
Parts are available contrary to popular myth.
On the down side, the Cleveland weighs more, the heads are sometimes prone to
cracks, and the cylinder walls are thin.

DC

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:22:31 -0500, Grover C. McCoury III rearranged some
electrons to form:

> In fact, the only trucks ever
> equipped with a 351 Cleveland engine by the factory were 1970-74
> Rancheros, which shared the Torino's platform and power train options.
> Many auto models were available with the 351C engine including the
> Mustang, Cougar, Torino and Pantera.

I think it's a stretch calling the Ranchero a "truck".

>
> The 351 Cleveland belongs to Ford's 335 engine family. The 351C was based
> on the design of the 385-series big blocks, but it was smaller and
> lighter.

And, it shares no internal dimensions and very few parts with the 385
(429/460).

> The 351C features different heads for 2V & 4V versions. Cleveland
> 4V heads feature larger ports/valves than the Cleveland 2V heads. The
> Cleveland 4V heads also feature a closed or quench-type combustion chamber
> - 2V heads feature an open combustion chamber. The 351C 4V heads
> essentially descended from Boss 302 heads.
>

There are 5 different types of heads: 2V, 70-71 4V, 71 Boss 351, 71-74 CJ,
72-74 HO. The 71 Boss 351 heads are similar to the Boss 302 heads.
From 72 on, all of the 4V heads were open chamber.


> Now, some info related to differences between 351W and 351C:
>
> The most significant difference between the 351W and the 351C is the
> heads. The Cleveland heads are what make this engine. Cleveland 4V heads
> feature HUGE canted valves - intake head diameter ~2.19, exhaust head
> diameter ~1.71.

The 2V heads also have canted (albeit slightly smaller) valves.

>
> Other differences are as follows:
>
> Intake manifolds, camshafts and crankshafts are not interchangable between
> 351W and 351C.

Nor connecting rods.


--
David M (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
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