Hybrid autos don't make economic sense

My 2 cents worth on Hybrid cars-
With gas and diesel both costing alomost double the price of 18 months
ago, and no reduction in sight, I have been toying with the idea of
turning in my 3/4 ton truck for an economy car. I considered the
hybrids, Honda Insight and Toyota Prius, and came up with the
following conclusion after "running the numbers":
Comparing the purchase price of a Prius to a Corolla, including CA
Sales Tax and DMV fees, the Prius comes out to about $6000 more, and
gets perhaps 10 mpg better fuel economy on average. What does this
mean in dollars spent? The bottom line is that the cost of ownership
for purchase price and fuel (but not including hard-to-guesstimate
costs like insurance and repairs), for the Prius vs. Corolla doesn't
equalize out until you have driven more than 500,000 miles! Now
that's at the current $2.00/gallon for gas. If gas should spike up to
$4.00/gallon, you would get more benefit from the Prius, but you would
still have to drive 250,000 miles to equalize costs. How about
comparing the Prius to the Echo, which looks like almost the same car
body, and maybe the same or very similar chassis. The Prius costs
$10,000 more than an Echo, and gets about the same fuel economy as the
Corolla, so you would have to drive ALMOST A MILLION MILES before the
Prius would give any cost benefit over the Echo. That's over 50 years
of driving at 15K miles a year. Very few small cars last more than 25
years or 200,000 miles, and it costs so much in parts and repairs to
keep them running longer than that, that it makes more sense to just
buy a new one than repair a faltering, worn out old one. The numbers
for the Honda Insight vs. base model Civic are similar: the Insight
can NEVER pay for itself compared to a much lower-priced regular
Civic. Two other things to consider: Battery replacement cost for
either the Prius or Insight costs anywhere from $3000 to $8000
depending on whose reports you believe, and the batteries probably
will last no more than 100K miles before they lose so much charge
capacity that the car will no longer function properly. In hot
climates like Phoenix, Arizona or Las Vegas, Nevada, the battery life
is probably cut by at least another 30%. The second issue is "real
world" fuel economy. It has been reported with increasing frequency
that Hybrid owners are not getting nearly the "fantastic" fuel economy
numbers reported by the EPA. Many Insight and Prius owners are
reporting that they often get MPG only a little better than they would
be getting with a regular Civic or Echo. This may be due to the way
the EPA tests fuel economy, which is by measuring tailpipe emissions
with the car on a dyno, NOT by actually driving the car on real
streets and highways. I read a report that said that this test
methodology may not be valid for Hybrids since they are so
technologically different than a conventional vehicle. Anyway, it
looks like there is just no way that the dollar cost of ownership for
a Hybrid can be justified as long as gas prices don't climb too much
higher, or unless the manufacturers somehow get the cost and retail
price down to reasonable levels where the Hybrids can genuinely
compete with regular cars of similar size and performance. BTW, I
also took a quick look at the new Ford Escape hybrid. Like the Prius
and Insight, it's many thousands of dollars more than a regular
Escape, and only gets maybe 10 mpg better fuel economy. Doesn't make
sense unless we end up with $10.00/gallon gas. As for replacing my 6
year old (and all paid for) Dodge Cummins Diesel truck with a Corolla
to save gas, it would take 200,000 miles for the fuel savings to pay
for the new car, so I guess I will stick with my truck unless the
retail price of diesel fuel shoots so high that I have to take out a
second mortgage on my house to fill the tank.

(lgcharlot) wrote in message . com>...
> My 2 cents worth on Hybrid cars-
> With gas and diesel both costing alomost double the price of 18 months
> ago, and no reduction in sight, I have been toying with the idea of
> turning in my 3/4 ton truck for an economy car. I considered the
> hybrids, Honda Insight and Toyota Prius, and came up with the
> following conclusion after "running the numbers":
> Comparing the purchase price of a Prius to a Corolla, including CA
> Sales Tax and DMV fees, the Prius comes out to about $6000 more, and
> gets perhaps 10 mpg better fuel economy on average. What does this
> mean in dollars spent? The bottom line is that the cost of ownership
> for purchase price and fuel (but not including hard-to-guesstimate
> costs like insurance and repairs), for the Prius vs. Corolla doesn't
> equalize out until you have driven more than 500,000 miles! Now
> that's at the current $2.00/gallon for gas. If gas should spike up to
> $4.00/gallon, you would get more benefit from the Prius, but you would
> still have to drive 250,000 miles to equalize costs. How about
> comparing the Prius to the Echo, which looks like almost the same car
> body, and maybe the same or very similar chassis. The Prius costs
> $10,000 more than an Echo, and gets about the same fuel economy as the
> Corolla, so you would have to drive ALMOST A MILLION MILES before the
> Prius would give any cost benefit over the Echo. That's over 50 years
> of driving at 15K miles a year. Very few small cars last more than 25
> years or 200,000 miles, and it costs so much in parts and repairs to
> keep them running longer than that, that it makes more sense to just
> buy a new one than repair a faltering, worn out old one. The numbers
> for the Honda Insight vs. base model Civic are similar: the Insight
> can NEVER pay for itself compared to a much lower-priced regular
> Civic. Two other things to consider: Battery replacement cost for
> either the Prius or Insight costs anywhere from $3000 to $8000
> depending on whose reports you believe, and the batteries probably
> will last no more than 100K miles before they lose so much charge
> capacity that the car will no longer function properly. In hot
> climates like Phoenix, Arizona or Las Vegas, Nevada, the battery life
> is probably cut by at least another 30%. The second issue is "real
> world" fuel economy. It has been reported with increasing frequency
> that Hybrid owners are not getting nearly the "fantastic" fuel economy
> numbers reported by the EPA. Many Insight and Prius owners are
> reporting that they often get MPG only a little better than they would
> be getting with a regular Civic or Echo. This may be due to the way
> the EPA tests fuel economy, which is by measuring tailpipe emissions
> with the car on a dyno, NOT by actually driving the car on real
> streets and highways. I read a report that said that this test
> methodology may not be valid for Hybrids since they are so
> technologically different than a conventional vehicle. Anyway, it
> looks like there is just no way that the dollar cost of ownership for
> a Hybrid can be justified as long as gas prices don't climb too much
> higher, or unless the manufacturers somehow get the cost and retail
> price down to reasonable levels where the Hybrids can genuinely
> compete with regular cars of similar size and performance. BTW, I
> also took a quick look at the new Ford Escape hybrid. Like the Prius
> and Insight, it's many thousands of dollars more than a regular
> Escape, and only gets maybe 10 mpg better fuel economy. Doesn't make
> sense unless we end up with $10.00/gallon gas. As for replacing my 6
> year old (and all paid for) Dodge Cummins Diesel truck with a Corolla
> to save gas, it would take 200,000 miles for the fuel savings to pay
> for the new car, so I guess I will stick with my truck unless the
> retail price of diesel fuel shoots so high that I have to take out a
> second mortgage on my house to fill the tank.


This happens so often with new technology. Consumers pay more than the
supposed savings all up front. Same happens with expensive florescent
lights for $10 instead of a 25¢ indandescent bulb. And what about
expensive repairs to those hybrids down the road? I would like to see
simple, repairable vehicles economically priced. I suspect I'm in the
minority.

(Al Bundy) wrote in message om>...
> (lgcharlot) wrote in message . com>...
> > My 2 cents worth on Hybrid cars-
> > With gas and diesel both costing alomost double the price of 18 months
> > ago, and no reduction in sight, I have been toying with the idea of
> > turning in my 3/4 ton truck for an economy car. I considered the
> > hybrids, Honda Insight and Toyota Prius, and came up with the
> > following conclusion after "running the numbers":
> > Comparing the purchase price of a Prius to a Corolla, including CA
> > Sales Tax and DMV fees, the Prius comes out to about $6000 more, and
> > gets perhaps 10 mpg better fuel economy on average. What does this
> > mean in dollars spent? The bottom line is that the cost of ownership
> > for purchase price and fuel (but not including hard-to-guesstimate
> > costs like insurance and repairs), for the Prius vs. Corolla doesn't
> > equalize out until you have driven more than 500,000 miles! Now
> > that's at the current $2.00/gallon for gas. If gas should spike up to
> > $4.00/gallon, you would get more benefit from the Prius, but you would
> > still have to drive 250,000 miles to equalize costs. How about
> > comparing the Prius to the Echo, which looks like almost the same car
> > body, and maybe the same or very similar chassis. The Prius costs
> > $10,000 more than an Echo, and gets about the same fuel economy as the
> > Corolla, so you would have to drive ALMOST A MILLION MILES before the
> > Prius would give any cost benefit over the Echo. That's over 50 years
> > of driving at 15K miles a year. Very few small cars last more than 25
> > years or 200,000 miles, and it costs so much in parts and repairs to
> > keep them running longer than that, that it makes more sense to just
> > buy a new one than repair a faltering, worn out old one. The numbers
> > for the Honda Insight vs. base model Civic are similar: the Insight
> > can NEVER pay for itself compared to a much lower-priced regular
> > Civic. Two other things to consider: Battery replacement cost for
> > either the Prius or Insight costs anywhere from $3000 to $8000
> > depending on whose reports you believe, and the batteries probably
> > will last no more than 100K miles before they lose so much charge
> > capacity that the car will no longer function properly. In hot
> > climates like Phoenix, Arizona or Las Vegas, Nevada, the battery life
> > is probably cut by at least another 30%. The second issue is "real
> > world" fuel economy. It has been reported with increasing frequency
> > that Hybrid owners are not getting nearly the "fantastic" fuel economy
> > numbers reported by the EPA. Many Insight and Prius owners are
> > reporting that they often get MPG only a little better than they would
> > be getting with a regular Civic or Echo. This may be due to the way
> > the EPA tests fuel economy, which is by measuring tailpipe emissions
> > with the car on a dyno, NOT by actually driving the car on real
> > streets and highways. I read a report that said that this test
> > methodology may not be valid for Hybrids since they are so
> > technologically different than a conventional vehicle. Anyway, it
> > looks like there is just no way that the dollar cost of ownership for
> > a Hybrid can be justified as long as gas prices don't climb too much
> > higher, or unless the manufacturers somehow get the cost and retail
> > price down to reasonable levels where the Hybrids can genuinely
> > compete with regular cars of similar size and performance. BTW, I
> > also took a quick look at the new Ford Escape hybrid. Like the Prius
> > and Insight, it's many thousands of dollars more than a regular
> > Escape, and only gets maybe 10 mpg better fuel economy. Doesn't make
> > sense unless we end up with $10.00/gallon gas. As for replacing my 6
> > year old (and all paid for) Dodge Cummins Diesel truck with a Corolla
> > to save gas, it would take 200,000 miles for the fuel savings to pay
> > for the new car, so I guess I will stick with my truck unless the
> > retail price of diesel fuel shoots so high that I have to take out a
> > second mortgage on my house to fill the tank.
>
>
> This happens so often with new technology. Consumers pay more than the
> supposed savings all up front. Same happens with expensive florescent
> lights for $10 instead of a 25¢ indandescent bulb. And what about
> expensive repairs to those hybrids down the road? I would like to see
> simple, repairable vehicles economically priced. I suspect I'm in the
> minority.

I might also argue the as we are global citizens sometimes the
"economic" advantage shouldn't be the only motivation to buy
green[er]. The final disposition of many materials in our society is
not always factored in and therefore provides a false cost/benifit.

For instance having to maintain a forgien policy posture that forces
us to prop up monorarchies around the globe in order to insure the
cost of oil is not factored in to the pump price.

If it were I would venture to say that hte cost per gallon with lives
and debt factored might increase signficantly.

Granted this is somewhat unfair that those who would decide to
shoulder the additional costs for the vechicle would be
disproportionatly assuming the burden for flawed energy polices I hope
that one would consider the big picture and our part in it.

dismounting soapbox.

Roger Blake > wrote:
> On 13 Oct 2004 11:57:41 -0700, sherpadude > wrote:
>>I might also argue the as we are global citizens sometimes the
>>"economic" advantage shouldn't be the only motivation to buy

> Speak for yourself. I make my purchases based on economics and my own
> preference and could not care less how they affect you or anyone else.
> If you feel differently feel free to spend tens of thousands of dollars
> of your own money on a pregnant roller skate. My vehicles gets 15 miles
> per gallon, on a good day -- and I'm keeping it.

> Screw "the community" is my motto.

That's why i bought a prius. Good performance, auto trans,
quiet and consumes very little gas -- the end effect is
that i drive cheap, does not have to visit gas stations as often
and can buy beer for all the money i used to spend on gas.

Some people just don't "get it"


--
Peter Håkanson
IPSec Sverige ( At Gothenburg Riverside )
Sorry about my e-mail address, but i'm trying to keep spam out,
remove "icke-reklam" if you feel for mailing me. Thanx.