Labour Charges

Hi,

I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency problem
with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go up.
the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car was
only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for labour...something
doesn't sound right.


do shops generally charge labour for actual hours or by the type of
job?

thanks for any help...

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency problem
> with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go up.
> the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
> replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
> left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car was
> only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for labour...something
> doesn't sound right.
>
>
> do shops generally charge labour for actual hours or by the type of
> job?

They often charge by a flat rate table, or suchlike. This table gives a
figure in hours that
is deemed to be reasonable and proper for certain types of jobs.
They don't have to use it. That is why you need to ask questions before you
get too deeply
involved.

Here in the lower 48, $80 US is not an unusual hourly rate.

For parts, you pay what they charge, not what it would cost at an auto parts
store.

Certainly they have to make money, and they provide a service, but
opportunistic
overcharging, or 'gouging', is illegal in some places. Sometimes people
make mistakes.
If you think they are in error, discuss it with them. If you get no
resolution and still feel
you were gouged, examine your legal recourse.

> I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency problem
> with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go up.
> the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
> replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
> left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car was
> only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for labour...something
> doesn't sound right.

I've been through the same mess with my Ford dealer. The bottom line is
what they quote you as the estimate (revised) is what you are stuck with it
no matter what the per hour posted rate is. I've paid as high as nearly
$200 per hour if I held their shop rate as gospel. Complaining to the local
BAR office about the tactic was futile and was basically told the same
thing. Dealer said it was a reward for the mechanic completing the job in a
timely matter. Yeah Right. Sort of like the roofer who does your re-roof
for $8000 quote. Hourly rate isn't even mentioned, although you'd probably
pass out if you found out.

Having been in the car repair business many years ago, Chilton used to have
two rate manuals: one for the independent shop who may take longer to do a
given job, and another for the dealer who had the special tools and acquired
speed to do the same job quicker. Guess which manual the dealers adopted
around here? Not the dealer manual. I don't know if they even print that
manual any more. I compared the dealer rate between the two manuals several
years back when I was gouged at my dealer and found their little trick.

Fwiw, my buddy, who works for a German car dealer, quit after their shop
went to a commission-based pay system from salary+percentage of repair.
Said he couldn't stand screwing people over like some of the mechanics were
doing like $325 "fuse jobs." Well, he soon left the private <honest?>
sector and went back and joined their ranks (says he had too much invested
in tools to let them go unused) and says it easy to charge twice the hourly
rate in the shop for any work done. Nice, eh. Now his dealer is
contemplating making the mechanics pay a "stall fee" like a hairdresser shop
and treat them as independent contractors (gets him out of some benefit
packages as well, which he will sell to them for a nominal and special group
fee). If that happens, wonder who is going to pay for that one <duh!>.

B~

wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency
problem
> with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go
up.
> the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
> replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
> left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car
> was only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for
> labour...something doesn't sound right.
>
>
> do shops generally charge labour for actual hours or by the type of
> job?
>
> thanks for any help...

Well, they could have had 3 mechanics working on it... not likely
though. The "flush and fill" may account for a large portion of the
bill. It's often charged for at a fixed rate, maybe 80 or 100 dollars,
is done by machine, and for most cars is a bogus service, in my
opinion. Just draining the coolant as normal for a water pump
replacement and refilling would have got you on your way for
considerably less.

> wrote in message
ups.com...

Just a little hint for the future...
when a water pump fails, or a hose springs a leak, you can often limp back
home
by letting it cool down, refilling the cooled system with water, and putting
the fill cap in place
but not tightened.

If the cap is not tight, then pressure does not build so high in the cooling
system, and the
water can last for a considerable period.

In article . com>,
says...
>Hi,
>I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency problem
>with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go up.
>the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
>replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
>left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car was
>only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for labour...something
>doesn't sound right.
>do shops generally charge labour for actual hours or by the type of
>job?

You should have asked them that question before you paid the bill. How
can you charge me 4 hours worth of labor when the car was in the shop
for only 1.5 hours?
-----------
Alex

Tell me what year, make and model the car is ac or not and I can look up the
flat rate labor time for the repair.
> wrote in message
.. .
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency problem
>> with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go up.
>> the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
>> replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
>> left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car was
>> only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for labour...something
>> doesn't sound right.
>>
>>
>> do shops generally charge labour for actual hours or by the type of
>> job?
>
> They often charge by a flat rate table, or suchlike. This table gives a
> figure in hours that
> is deemed to be reasonable and proper for certain types of jobs.
> They don't have to use it. That is why you need to ask questions before
> you
> get too deeply
> involved.
>
> Here in the lower 48, $80 US is not an unusual hourly rate.
>
> For parts, you pay what they charge, not what it would cost at an auto
> parts
> store.
>
> Certainly they have to make money, and they provide a service, but
> opportunistic
> overcharging, or 'gouging', is illegal in some places. Sometimes people
> make mistakes.
> If you think they are in error, discuss it with them. If you get no
> resolution and still feel
> you were gouged, examine your legal recourse.
>
>
>



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Tell me what year, make and model the car is ac or not and I can look up the
flat rate labor time for the repair.
> wrote in message
.. .
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency problem
>> with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go up.
>> the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
>> replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
>> left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car was
>> only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for labour...something
>> doesn't sound right.
>>
>>
>> do shops generally charge labour for actual hours or by the type of
>> job?
>
> They often charge by a flat rate table, or suchlike. This table gives a
> figure in hours that
> is deemed to be reasonable and proper for certain types of jobs.
> They don't have to use it. That is why you need to ask questions before
> you
> get too deeply
> involved.
>
> Here in the lower 48, $80 US is not an unusual hourly rate.
>
> For parts, you pay what they charge, not what it would cost at an auto
> parts
> store.
>
> Certainly they have to make money, and they provide a service, but
> opportunistic
> overcharging, or 'gouging', is illegal in some places. Sometimes people
> make mistakes.
> If you think they are in error, discuss it with them. If you get no
> resolution and still feel
> you were gouged, examine your legal recourse.
>
>
>



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

wrote:

> I have a pretty basic question. Last night, I had an emergency problem
> with my car. the coolant light came on, and the temp started to go up.
> the only place I could go that was open was Canadian Tire. After
> replacing the water pump, and flushing and filling the coolant, they
> left me with a $500 bill, including $320 in labour charges. The car
> was only in there for 1.5h, and they charge $80h for
> labour...something doesn't sound right.
> do shops generally charge labour for actual hours or by the type of
> job?

Canadian Tire is a flat rate shop, so they would charge you
the flat rate hours to perform the job. They charged you
4 hrs of labour, 1 hr of that is probably the coolant flush,
so 3 hrs for a water pump. On some water pumps that's
a reasonable rate, we don't know what vehicle or engine
you have. The fact that the vehicle was in the shop for
only 1.5 hrs tells me that either the tech is extremely
fast, or the labour rate for the water pump is out to
lunch. There were some GM water pumps that paid
3hrs, but only took an hour to do. By the same token
there are some operations that you lose money on.
Items like water pumps, brakes...etc...usually can
be done much quicker then book time as tech's have
lot's of experience working on those items.

Talk to the service manager and ask to see the labour
rate for your vehicle and engine for replacing the
water pump. They should be able to show you. Nobody
has to go by those books, but most places stick to those
books for their labour times.

Ian

B. Peg wrote:
> I've been through the same mess with my Ford dealer. The bottom line
> is what they quote you as the estimate (revised) is what you are
> stuck with it no matter what the per hour posted rate is. I've paid
> as high as nearly $200 per hour if I held their shop rate as gospel.
> Complaining to the local BAR office about the tactic was futile and
> was basically told the same thing. Dealer said it was a reward for
> the mechanic completing the job in a timely matter. Yeah Right. Sort of
> like the roofer who does your re-roof for $8000 quote. Hourly rate isn't
> even mentioned, although you'd probably pass out if
> you found out.

Most trades are like this. You get a quote, if they happen to make
money by doing it quickly, you still pay what you agreed to pay.
What's the big deal? If you came to our dealership, I'd be happy
to line you up with the biggest dog****er in the shop and you pay
whatever it takes him to do your work. You won't like that either.
From what I've seen and experienced in dealership work, the
very best work you will get is from the fast productive tech, and
the very worst work you get is from the fast tech. Being fast is
not any kind of indication of what kind of work a tech does.

> Having been in the car repair business many years ago, Chilton used
> to have two rate manuals: one for the independent shop who may take
> longer to do a given job, and another for the dealer who had the
> special tools and acquired speed to do the same job quicker. Guess
> which manual the dealers adopted around here? Not the dealer manual.
> I don't know if they even print that manual any more. I compared the
> dealer rate between the two manuals several years back when I was
> gouged at my dealer and found their little trick.

That must have been "a long" time ago. There is only one or two
labour time guides, and basically most of the labour times are based
on the Manufacturers warranty times. Customer pay is approx 1.4
times the warranty time. When you bring your vehicle into a dealership
to get some work done, we've already spent a number of years doing
the work under warranty and have figured out how to beat or meet
the time. When you are good, you get paid for it.

> Fwiw, my buddy, who works for a German car dealer, quit after their
> shop went to a commission-based pay system from salary+percentage of
> repair. Said he couldn't stand screwing people over like some of the
> mechanics were doing like $325 "fuse jobs." Well, he soon left the
> private <honest?> sector and went back and joined their ranks (says
> he had too much invested in tools to let them go unused) and says it
> easy to charge twice the hourly rate in the shop for any work done. Nice,
> eh.

In other words, he was "starving" over in the other sector. And if
you are good, twice the hourly rate can be done. In our mix of
warranty and customer pay work, usually a good tech will hit about
150% efficiency. If you are doing nothing but mindless gravy all
day long, then yeah...you could do better. Of course that's a whole
nuther in-house debate that would be of little interest to the majority
of people in here.

Ian