poll - high mileage civics, what oil U burn ?

SoCalMike wrote:

> wrote:
>> After all's said and done, probably peace of mind. There's no doubt
>> that synthetics and their additives are superior to dino oil, but I
>> don't know anyone who's had problems due to the oil either as long as
>> it's changed at relatively decent intervals.
>
>
> did toyota ever find out what was behind the "sludging" problem?
>

Even though they covered the cost to avoid bad publicity, the real reason
was owner neglect.

"SoCalMike" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> After all's said and done, probably peace of mind. There's no doubt
>> that synthetics and their additives are superior to dino oil, but I
>> don't know anyone who's had problems due to the oil either as long as
>> it's changed at relatively decent intervals.
>
>
> did toyota ever find out what was behind the "sludging" problem?

They identified a design problem with the baffles in the valve cover as
being the trigger for a more complex situation involving too much heat
difference between the lower levels of the lubrication system and the oil
under the valve cover. IIRC a redesigned valve cover was the fix. Toyota
maintained to the last that the problem was never documented in any engine
that strictly followed their oil change schedule, leading to speculation
that the margin of tolerance for oil changes was oo close for the V6.

Unfortunately, I didn't save the link on that.

Mike

Elle wrote:

> Car: 1991 Civic 4-Dr Sedan, 1.5L
> Miles: 173k
> 2005 Fuel Efficiency stats:
> Overall average and st. dev.= 41plus or minus 2.3 mpg (or
> +/- 6%)
> Warm months average = 42 mpg
> Cold months average = 40 mpg (so a decline of about 5% from
> summer to winter)
> Range = 38 mpg (Feb fillup) to 47 mpg (June fillup)
> Oil: Pennzoil 5W-30 for life of car, changed about every 5k
> miles or six months.

I would like to know why one other poster here said that Pennzoil was crap.
I have put Pennzoil, Castrol and Quaker State in my Accord (all 5W-30) and
have had no problems with any of them.

"Elle" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> I read a report on the net last year about using synthetic
> oil in cars. Some guy sampled data from people and wrote it
> up. Not a lot of data but enough to make it a worthwhile
> read, IIRC. Seems that, in older cars, seal failure
> simultaneous to switching to synthetic oil is very rare, but
> does occur. It wasn't entirely clear that the switch caused
> the seal failure.
>
>
I have changed three older (130K miles to 230K miles) cars over to synthetic
in the last few years and haven't had leaks on any of them, but three cars
isn't what I'd call a lot of data, either.

Mike

"High Tech Misfit" > wrote in message
...
>
> I would like to know why one other poster here said that Pennzoil was
> crap.
> I have put Pennzoil, Castrol and Quaker State in my Accord (all 5W-30) and
> have had no problems with any of them.

My motorhead brother says Havoline tends to leave carbon deposits, so I
never even gave it a chance to have its way with me. (Although I have to
wonder if somebody who would shoehorn a 454 into a Vega is the best guide!)

I have used Pennzoil, Valvoline and Quaker State pretty much interchangably
over the last three decades. I've only been using Mobil One for a few years,
but so far I'm happy.

Mike

"Elle" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Car: 1991 Civic 4-Dr Sedan, 1.5L
> Miles: 173k
> 2005 Fuel Efficiency stats:
> Overall average and st. dev.= 41plus or minus 2.3 mpg (or
> +/- 6%)
> Warm months average = 42 mpg
> Cold months average = 40 mpg (so a decline of about 5% from
> summer to winter)
> Range = 38 mpg (Feb fillup) to 47 mpg (June fillup)
> Oil: Pennzoil 5W-30 for life of car, changed about every 5k
> miles or six months.
>
> Seems to burn maybe one-half quart at most between oil
> changes, but I'm really not sure. In the last few years I
> always end up adding some at some point between oil changes.
>

i thought i had a leak but it turned out that i did spill more oil over the
side than i though i did which explained where all the oil came from ( that
is, i washed it off and it has not returned )
so i must be burning that missing oil which is about the same as yours 1/2
qt between changes

>
> I read a report on the net last year about using synthetic
> oil in cars. Some guy sampled data from people and wrote it
> up. Not a lot of data but enough to make it a worthwhile
> read, IIRC. Seems that, in older cars, seal failure
> simultaneous to switching to synthetic oil is very rare, but
> does occur. It wasn't entirely clear that the switch caused
> the seal failure.
>
Some web site i was reading claimed that synthetics tend to run a bit
thinner than dino at high temps and that might be cause of oil leaks at the
seals. But i do not know how much to believe that when the weight rating of
the oil 5w30 (etc) should indicate the oil thinning behavior within some
margin so that choosing the proper oil weight would make that a non-issue

then ther are the claims that all the additives to the dino oil (seal
conditioners , viscosity improver etc) are what keep the seals healthy in
the dino oil.

thanks for feedback
robb

"High Tech Misfit" > wrote in message
...
> Elle wrote:
>
> > Car: 1991 Civic 4-Dr Sedan, 1.5L
> > Miles: 173k
> > 2005 Fuel Efficiency stats:
> > Overall average and st. dev.= 41plus or minus 2.3 mpg (or
> > +/- 6%)
> > Warm months average = 42 mpg
> > Cold months average = 40 mpg (so a decline of about 5% from
> > summer to winter)
> > Range = 38 mpg (Feb fillup) to 47 mpg (June fillup)
> > Oil: Pennzoil 5W-30 for life of car, changed about every 5k
> > miles or six months.
>
> I would like to know why one other poster here said that Pennzoil was
crap.
> I have put Pennzoil, Castrol and Quaker State in my Accord (all 5W-30) and
> have had no problems with any of them.

I would too.

The best i can figure from techinical specs is that penzoil scored middle or
so along with oils like Shell and chevron supreme and valvoline all climate
etc

"Michael Pardee" > wrote
> "Elle" > wrote
> > I read a report on the net last year about using
synthetic
> > oil in cars. Some guy sampled data from people and wrote
it
> > up. Not a lot of data but enough to make it a worthwhile
> > read, IIRC. Seems that, in older cars, seal failure
> > simultaneous to switching to synthetic oil is very rare,
but
> > does occur. It wasn't entirely clear that the switch
caused
> > the seal failure.
> >
> >
> I have changed three older (130K miles to 230K miles) cars
over to synthetic
> in the last few years and haven't had leaks on any of
them, but three cars
> isn't what I'd call a lot of data, either.

I believe three "successes" out of three attempts actually
does have a fair amount of statistical significance attached
to it. It's even a little intuitive, IMO, that your little
home study indicates it's probably safe (maybe very safe) to
switch a high mileage car to synthetic.

The amateur (but fairly careful, all things considered)
study to which I refer above appears at
http://www-d0.fnal.gov/~jkrane/cars/synth_survey.html

Summary:
74 cars total
-- Most of the cars studied had less than 100k miles. These
produced two leakers, one easily fixed by proper tightening
of various seal bolts. The second leaker demonstrated a
bizarre single leak at the "fuel pump pivot pin."

-- Clearly the cars with over 100k miles were a minority of
the sample, but not an insignificant one ISTM. They produced
two leakers, both 1975 Porsche 911s. Both began to leak some
20k miles after the switch.

"High Tech Misfit" > wrote
> I would like to know why one other poster here said that
Pennzoil was crap.

I'm sure you know this, but to share my own view: Part of
the beauty of online fora open to the public is that they
denote in total ultimate marketplace of ideas. People can
and do post anything, substantiated or not. When what is
posted seems off-kilter, typically enough people respond
such that a reasonable person can arrive at a conclusion
that is useful.

With rare exceptions, this method of transmitting 'the best
information possible' is, simply, the best. Mathematical
proofs even exist that argue the more diverse a group of
problem solvers, the more likely the best solution will be
found.

> I have put Pennzoil, Castrol and Quaker State in my Accord
(all 5W-30) and
> have had no problems with any of them.

Over 20 years ago I knew young men who claimed Quaker State
caused more sludge than most. Maybe he was right--back then.
But I also think there is abundant documentation that oil
formulations have changed dramatically in 20+ years. So I
read reports on today's conventional oils with I hope an
open mind. I'm not going to switch my car from Pennzoil to
something else, but I don't reject anyone else's use of
anything else.

I am not switching to synthetic because I have the time to
do oil changes. My 91 Civic's oil change schedule also
forces me to crawl under the car for half an hour about
every six months and inspect (and clean up a bit) the
exhaust system, CV boots, my oil pan, etc. I think this
semi-annual or so inspection is important on an older car.

I realize that I might very well get better mileage with
synthetic, and it might improve engine longevity, too.

On the third hand, seems like we get plenty of reports here
of Hondas going over 300k miles on conventional oil.

If I didn't have time and had money to throw away, I'd be a
lot more open to switching to synthetic.

High Tech Misfit wrote:
>
> Elle wrote:
>
> > Car: 1991 Civic 4-Dr Sedan, 1.5L
> > Miles: 173k
> > 2005 Fuel Efficiency stats:
> > Overall average and st. dev.= 41plus or minus 2.3 mpg (or
> > +/- 6%)
> > Warm months average = 42 mpg
> > Cold months average = 40 mpg (so a decline of about 5% from
> > summer to winter)
> > Range = 38 mpg (Feb fillup) to 47 mpg (June fillup)
> > Oil: Pennzoil 5W-30 for life of car, changed about every 5k
> > miles or six months.
>
> I would like to know why one other poster here said that Pennzoil was crap.
> I have put Pennzoil, Castrol and Quaker State in my Accord (all 5W-30) and
> have had no problems with any of them.



Uh, if you can't or couldn't tell the difference between Castrol and the
other two brands, it is beyond my capacity to help or educate you.

However, I do expect that Quaker State/Pennzoil may have cleaned up
their act after a lot of bad publicity a few years ago...

JT