2.2 turbo EFI, cold-start problem; open/close loop? suggestions?

92 Spirit R/T.

hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine.
(3-4 hours from last start).

will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts
it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough,
and w/ exhaust backfire.

Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how
cold (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely
smooth. very repeatable;

ODB-II shows an accurate temperature.

Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop
program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside
sensor inputs", if "closed" does...).

changing SBEC's made no difference.
(yeah, that's what the local dealer suggested,
and 92 2.2/turbo SBEC's are as rare as chicken teeth ...)

during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust
looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what
should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor.

based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect
a 5th injector stuck open during the initial 2.5 minutes
(does a 2.2/Turbo EFI even have a 5th injector, or something similar?)

Using the Block heater is one work-around (starts like a charm when
warm), but that's of no use, when the car is somewhere I cannot
plug in.

any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 wrote:

> 92 Spirit R/T.

That car is a lot of fun to drive...not such fun to keep running. They are
essentially "production prototypes", and parts can be fearfully expensive.
I drove a '91.

> hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine. (3-4 hours from last
> start). will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts
> it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough, and w/ exhaust
> backfire.

Some initial thoughts:

Which exact spark plugs are you running in it?

Have you carefully checked the MAP sensor line for accumulated water and
for cracks?

How long since you replaced the O2 sensor *and inspected the O2 sensor
wires* where they run below the air cleaner bracket? These wires are
easily cooked; they're directly above the exhaust manifold. And, when you
replaced the O2 sensor, what brand of replacement did you use?

> Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how cold
> (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely smooth. very
> repeatable

OK, so it runs poorly below a certain engine coolant temperature, and/or
below a certain air charge temperature, and/or there's a problem with the
O2 sensor/wiring, and/or the camshaft and/or crankshaft position sensor(s)
is/are failing.

> ODB-II shows an accurate temperature.

OBD. How did you check this?

> Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop
> program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside
> sensor inputs", if "closed" does...).

When you first start up, it's in open-loop. When it warms up, it's in
closed-loop.

> changing SBEC's made no difference.

The SBEC scarcely ever causes problems.

> during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust
> looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what
> should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor.

If it smells way rich, it's "too rich".

> based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect
> a 5th injector stuck open

No 5th (cold start) injector on this system.

> any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated.

Systematic diagnosis. Let's have some answers to the questions above and
then we'll go from there.


DS

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 wrote:

> 92 Spirit R/T.

That car is a lot of fun to drive...not such fun to keep running. They are
essentially "production prototypes", and parts can be fearfully expensive.
I drove a '91.

> hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine. (3-4 hours from last
> start). will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts
> it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough, and w/ exhaust
> backfire.

Some initial thoughts:

Which exact spark plugs are you running in it?

Have you carefully checked the MAP sensor line for accumulated water and
for cracks?

How long since you replaced the O2 sensor *and inspected the O2 sensor
wires* where they run below the air cleaner bracket? These wires are
easily cooked; they're directly above the exhaust manifold. And, when you
replaced the O2 sensor, what brand of replacement did you use?

> Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how cold
> (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely smooth. very
> repeatable

OK, so it runs poorly below a certain engine coolant temperature, and/or
below a certain air charge temperature, and/or there's a problem with the
O2 sensor/wiring, and/or the camshaft and/or crankshaft position sensor(s)
is/are failing.

> ODB-II shows an accurate temperature.

OBD. How did you check this?

> Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop
> program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside
> sensor inputs", if "closed" does...).

When you first start up, it's in open-loop. When it warms up, it's in
closed-loop.

> changing SBEC's made no difference.

The SBEC scarcely ever causes problems.

> during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust
> looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what
> should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor.

If it smells way rich, it's "too rich".

> based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect
> a 5th injector stuck open

No 5th (cold start) injector on this system.

> any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated.

Systematic diagnosis. Let's have some answers to the questions above and
then we'll go from there.


DS

02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, No 5th injector,
Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
sensors i would check the the basic timing and fuel contamination in the
vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
problems, there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
SUBJECT: Long Crank Time/Rough Idle/Tip-In Sag Or Hesitation When Cold
DATE: Sep. 21, 1992
THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-13-92 WHICH SHOULD BE
REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED AND WITH
**ASTERISKS**.

NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
ENGINE.

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
In cold ambient temperatures (below 35°F or 2°C), vehicles equipped with 4
cylinder TBI engines may exhibit one or more of the following conditions
during initial start up:

a.. long crank times
b.. rough idle (for 2-3 minutes after starting vehicle)
c.. slight sag or hesitation on tip in from idle (for 2-3 minutes after
starting vehicle)
These symptoms may be caused by poor fuel distribution within the intake
manifold, when the engine is cold.

DIAGNOSIS:
Verify the customer complaint by cold starting the vehicle in conditions
that are as close as possible to those described in under the
Symptom/Condition heading (ambient temperature, soak time, etc.). Once the
complaint has been verified, use the DRB II (Scan Tool) and the appropriate
diagnostic procedures manual to verify that all of the vehicle engine
systems are functioning properly (no fault codes [diagnostic trouble codes]
are present). If no trouble codes are present inspect the intake manifold
for a raised "X" cast into the number 1 runner. The "X" is located under the
letter "F" in the words "FIRING ORDER" on the top of the number 1 intake
manifold runner as illustrated. Intake manifolds that DO NOT have a "X"
should be replaced using the following procedure. ( See Illustration)

PARTS REQUIRED:
Quantity
Description
Part No.

1

Intake Manifold Assembly



Non EGR Equipped
**4667173**


EGR Equipped
**4667172**

1

Intake And Exhaust Manifold Gasket
4240096


> wrote in message
...
> 92 Spirit R/T.
>
> hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine.
> (3-4 hours from last start).
>
> will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts
> it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough,
> and w/ exhaust backfire.
>
> Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how
> cold (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely
> smooth. very repeatable;
>
> ODB-II shows an accurate temperature.
>
> Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop
> program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside
> sensor inputs", if "closed" does...).
>
> changing SBEC's made no difference.
> (yeah, that's what the local dealer suggested,
> and 92 2.2/turbo SBEC's are as rare as chicken teeth ...)
>
> during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust
> looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what
> should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor.
>
> based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect
> a 5th injector stuck open during the initial 2.5 minutes
> (does a 2.2/Turbo EFI even have a 5th injector, or something similar?)
>
> Using the Block heater is one work-around (starts like a charm when
> warm), but that's of no use, when the car is somewhere I cannot
> plug in.
>
> any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated.
>

02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, No 5th injector,
Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
sensors i would check the the basic timing and fuel contamination in the
vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
problems, there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
SUBJECT: Long Crank Time/Rough Idle/Tip-In Sag Or Hesitation When Cold
DATE: Sep. 21, 1992
THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-13-92 WHICH SHOULD BE
REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED AND WITH
**ASTERISKS**.

NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
ENGINE.

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
In cold ambient temperatures (below 35°F or 2°C), vehicles equipped with 4
cylinder TBI engines may exhibit one or more of the following conditions
during initial start up:

a.. long crank times
b.. rough idle (for 2-3 minutes after starting vehicle)
c.. slight sag or hesitation on tip in from idle (for 2-3 minutes after
starting vehicle)
These symptoms may be caused by poor fuel distribution within the intake
manifold, when the engine is cold.

DIAGNOSIS:
Verify the customer complaint by cold starting the vehicle in conditions
that are as close as possible to those described in under the
Symptom/Condition heading (ambient temperature, soak time, etc.). Once the
complaint has been verified, use the DRB II (Scan Tool) and the appropriate
diagnostic procedures manual to verify that all of the vehicle engine
systems are functioning properly (no fault codes [diagnostic trouble codes]
are present). If no trouble codes are present inspect the intake manifold
for a raised "X" cast into the number 1 runner. The "X" is located under the
letter "F" in the words "FIRING ORDER" on the top of the number 1 intake
manifold runner as illustrated. Intake manifolds that DO NOT have a "X"
should be replaced using the following procedure. ( See Illustration)

PARTS REQUIRED:
Quantity
Description
Part No.

1

Intake Manifold Assembly



Non EGR Equipped
**4667173**


EGR Equipped
**4667172**

1

Intake And Exhaust Manifold Gasket
4240096


> wrote in message
...
> 92 Spirit R/T.
>
> hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine.
> (3-4 hours from last start).
>
> will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts
> it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough,
> and w/ exhaust backfire.
>
> Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how
> cold (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely
> smooth. very repeatable;
>
> ODB-II shows an accurate temperature.
>
> Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop
> program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside
> sensor inputs", if "closed" does...).
>
> changing SBEC's made no difference.
> (yeah, that's what the local dealer suggested,
> and 92 2.2/turbo SBEC's are as rare as chicken teeth ...)
>
> during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust
> looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what
> should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor.
>
> based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect
> a 5th injector stuck open during the initial 2.5 minutes
> (does a 2.2/Turbo EFI even have a 5th injector, or something similar?)
>
> Using the Block heater is one work-around (starts like a charm when
> warm), but that's of no use, when the car is somewhere I cannot
> plug in.
>
> any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated.
>

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:

> 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,

....except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!

> Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
> sensors i would check the the basic timing

Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.

> vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
> problems,

Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
runtime.

> there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
> NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
> ENGINE.

Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:

> 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,

....except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!

> Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
> sensors i would check the the basic timing

Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.

> vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
> problems,

Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
runtime.

> there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
> NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
> ENGINE.

Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.

I wont get in an argue match with you,and i dont play those games you play
either. i am posting as much info on a subject that i can, If you read, it
states EFI (electronic Fuel Injection) which means only 1 injector, if you
keep reading on it states turbo, i posted to cover both engines because i
wasnt sure of the engine, that engine does have a distributor in it and is
adjustable, it is not DIS, if the fuel regualtor is ruptured it will cause
drivability problems of all sorts including what is posted, didnt mean to
ruin your weekend pal, my humble apoligies, hope you didnt lose to much
sleep over this.
"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
>
> > 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,
>
> ...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
> sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
> mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!
>
> > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
> > sensors i would check the the basic timing
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
> timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.
>
> > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
> > problems,
>
> Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
> pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
> runtime.
>
> > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
> > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
> > ENGINE.
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
> 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.
>

I wont get in an argue match with you,and i dont play those games you play
either. i am posting as much info on a subject that i can, If you read, it
states EFI (electronic Fuel Injection) which means only 1 injector, if you
keep reading on it states turbo, i posted to cover both engines because i
wasnt sure of the engine, that engine does have a distributor in it and is
adjustable, it is not DIS, if the fuel regualtor is ruptured it will cause
drivability problems of all sorts including what is posted, didnt mean to
ruin your weekend pal, my humble apoligies, hope you didnt lose to much
sleep over this.
"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
>
> > 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,
>
> ...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
> sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
> mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!
>
> > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
> > sensors i would check the the basic timing
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
> timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.
>
> > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
> > problems,
>
> Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
> pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
> runtime.
>
> > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
> > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
> > ENGINE.
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
> 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.
>

and yes the 2.2 multipoint injection 16 valve engine does not have a
distributor. all others do
"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
>
> > 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop,
>
> ...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor
> sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster
> mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop!
>
> > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr
> > sensors i would check the the basic timing
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic
> timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS.
>
> > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major
> > problems,
>
> Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel
> pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of
> runtime.
>
> > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this.
> > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI
> > ENGINE.
>
> Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a
> 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine.
>