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Alkalinity problems?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 14th 03, 12:54 AM
D&M
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alkalinity problems?

Just curious if anyone has ever had a problem with high alkalinity? My
tester only reads up to 240ppm, and it's way past that, which accounts for
my high pH, but besides high pH, has anyone ever had any other problems?
I've heard of problems with plants and some fish, most was directed toward
the pH levels involved, but that was about it.

Cheers


  #2  
Old July 14th 03, 02:37 AM
Stan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alkalinity problems?

I have. I bought an RO unit so I could manage my environments better.
Since getting into RO and after buying a conductivity meter I focus a
lot less on pH and a lot more on the conductivity.

At sears in the water treatment department, they sell a Hanna TDS meter
for about $20. Its says TDS, but really its conductivity. That meter
will be a good investment.

For a while I bought RO water from the grocery store for a 20 gallon
long Apisto tank. I paid about $180 for a 80 gallon per day RO unit.
It produces about 60 gpd at my city waters temp. For me, it was a great
thing, but I have a basement with plenty of room for all the gear and
storage containers.

Once you understand your water conditions you can decide if it meets
your needs or if you need to alter your choice of fish types.



"D&M" wrote in message
...
Just curious if anyone has ever had a problem with high alkalinity? My
tester only reads up to 240ppm, and it's way past that, which accounts

for
my high pH, but besides high pH, has anyone ever had any other

problems?
I've heard of problems with plants and some fish, most was directed

toward
the pH levels involved, but that was about it.

Cheers




  #3  
Old July 14th 03, 03:13 AM
NetMax
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alkalinity problems?

"D&M" wrote in message
...
Just curious if anyone has ever had a problem with high alkalinity? My
tester only reads up to 240ppm, and it's way past that, which accounts

for
my high pH, but besides high pH, has anyone ever had any other

problems?
I've heard of problems with plants and some fish, most was directed

toward
the pH levels involved, but that was about it.

Cheers


kH is usually equal or lower than gH, so knowing your gH could be more
important. You can offset your tester's threshold by diluting your
mixture. Cut your water sample in half using RO (or distilled water) and
repeat the test, or switch to a titration test. A concentration of
240ppm is only 13dkH, which is not terribly high, but typical for many
wells.

I've often read that kH does not affect fish (I'm not entirely
convinced). There have been discussions on whether certain fishes might
be kH susceptible (like Neons and Otos which exhibit a fragility which is
difficult to explain sometimes). I've never seen anything conclusive.
The biggest legitimate concerns are if the kH is lower than 4 or 5dkH
(making the water more prone to pH instability) and if the kH is high
(making the water difficult to acidify). Other than that, our attention
is usually on the pH & gH.

NetMax


  #4  
Old July 14th 03, 05:06 PM
Racf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alkalinity problems?

Stan here, using my original handle again.

If the tap water filter is a Deionizer (DI) then you should
re-constitute the water maybe a little. If it just a carbon filter then
sure it removes metals and chlorine, but the salts and most minerals go
right through it. Electrolytes are key to fresh water fish. They are in
water unless great pain is taken to remove them, like RO/DI.

Tap water should be OK.

Of course there are always exceptions for weird fish, but they are
exceptions. New fish from the store will need some extra protection and
special acclimation to your tank. The key is the TDS/conductivity of
the source and target water. Get a conductivity meter or a TDS meter
(which is really the same thing in the range us humans could afford).
Do not worry about the pH unless your gonna inject CO2 and all that
baloney.

Products you need:

Amquel
NovaAqua
PolyAqua

There are all Kordon products. Sure there are many others on the
market, but they were first and some believe the best. You will use the
Amquel the most followed by the other two when dealing with transferring
fish. The Poly is the most extreme fish care. It puts a slime coat on
a fish like nothing else you will ever see.

I imagine your declorinator will be OK, but its probably not
Amquel.....and it takes care of Chlorine, chloramine, and free ammonia.

Anyway, acclimate new fish via the drip method. Slowly match up the TDS
readings between the source water (fish bag) to your tank. Slow slow
slow. No more than a TDS change of 50 per 1/2 hour......

Of course you want to make sure the fish you buy are not already jacked.
Since you have a reef tank I guess you probably into this stuff pretty
much except fresh water varies big time, while salt water really is salt
water....

Again, do not worry about the pH....although once in a blue moon you may
want to peek.

PS. Take your TDS meter to the fish store and measure the tank your
fish is coming out of. They many times add something to the bagged
water like a bag buddy or a squirt of something else.

You can phase out the Nova after your tank is running a while and fish
are in good shape.



--

-------------------------------------
For email remove junk
leaving the IP Addrress
Thats all from Racf
-------------------------------------
"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
et...
Stan,
Thanks for that info. Actually I probably should create a new thread

for
this. So I apologize in advance. I use a product by Aquarium Pharm.

called
tap water filter. It claims to remove chlorine and other metals from

the
water. I use this water on my FOWLR (fish only with live rock) salt

tank.
So far I have no complaints with it. I recently setup a 29 gallon

freshwater
tank and it is becoming a planted tank. So I ask my LFS if I would

need to
add anything to the water, since with the sal****er tank I add the sea

salt
mix. He said that I would need to replace the electrolytes in the

fresh
water since I was removing some of the trace elements as well as bad

stuff
in the water. I don't recall the product he recommended but do you

believe
that he is trying to sell me something else or is there merit in his
recommendation? At this point I still use tap water and treat it with

a
dechlorinator. I've been too lazy to actually use the "filtered"

water. What
do you think?

Thanks,
Vinny

"Stan" wrote in message
...
Yes....sometimes. For Apistos just straight RO. For breeding

Angels
just straight RO. For Angel grow-out, I gradually adapt them back

to my
tap water...very hard and pH of 8.2. Growing Discus: I mix in

Calcium
Sulfate, Sea Salt, and Epsom salts and sometimes a bit of baking

soda.
If I were breeding them, it would be straight RO.

The Apisto and Angel breeder tanks stay around a TDS of 40 - 80. I
change 1/2 my water every week. I dose some plant supplements that

add
some minerals.


"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
t...
Stan,
Do you use any additives to the RO water?
Thanks
Vinny

"Stan" wrote in message
...
I have. I bought an RO unit so I could manage my environments

better.
Since getting into RO and after buying a conductivity meter I

focus
a
lot less on pH and a lot more on the conductivity.

At sears in the water treatment department, they sell a Hanna

TDS
meter
for about $20. Its says TDS, but really its conductivity. That

meter
will be a good investment.

For a while I bought RO water from the grocery store for a 20

gallon
long Apisto tank. I paid about $180 for a 80 gallon per day RO

unit.
It produces about 60 gpd at my city waters temp. For me, it was

a
great
thing, but I have a basement with plenty of room for all the

gear
and
storage containers.

Once you understand your water conditions you can decide if it

meets
your needs or if you need to alter your choice of fish types.



"D&M" wrote in message
...
Just curious if anyone has ever had a problem with high

alkalinity? My
tester only reads up to 240ppm, and it's way past that, which

accounts
for
my high pH, but besides high pH, has anyone ever had any other
problems?
I've heard of problems with plants and some fish, most was

directed
toward
the pH levels involved, but that was about it.

Cheers












  #5  
Old July 14th 03, 11:10 PM
Vincent Femia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alkalinity problems?

The declorinator as I call it is actually "pH 7.0 Seachem Neutral
Regulator".

"Racf" wrote in message
...
Stan here, using my original handle again.

If the tap water filter is a Deionizer (DI) then you should
re-constitute the water maybe a little. If it just a carbon filter then
sure it removes metals and chlorine, but the salts and most minerals go
right through it. Electrolytes are key to fresh water fish. They are in
water unless great pain is taken to remove them, like RO/DI.

Tap water should be OK.

Of course there are always exceptions for weird fish, but they are
exceptions. New fish from the store will need some extra protection and
special acclimation to your tank. The key is the TDS/conductivity of
the source and target water. Get a conductivity meter or a TDS meter
(which is really the same thing in the range us humans could afford).
Do not worry about the pH unless your gonna inject CO2 and all that
baloney.

Products you need:

Amquel
NovaAqua
PolyAqua

There are all Kordon products. Sure there are many others on the
market, but they were first and some believe the best. You will use the
Amquel the most followed by the other two when dealing with transferring
fish. The Poly is the most extreme fish care. It puts a slime coat on
a fish like nothing else you will ever see.

I imagine your declorinator will be OK, but its probably not
Amquel.....and it takes care of Chlorine, chloramine, and free ammonia.

Anyway, acclimate new fish via the drip method. Slowly match up the TDS
readings between the source water (fish bag) to your tank. Slow slow
slow. No more than a TDS change of 50 per 1/2 hour......

Of course you want to make sure the fish you buy are not already jacked.
Since you have a reef tank I guess you probably into this stuff pretty
much except fresh water varies big time, while salt water really is salt
water....

Again, do not worry about the pH....although once in a blue moon you may
want to peek.

PS. Take your TDS meter to the fish store and measure the tank your
fish is coming out of. They many times add something to the bagged
water like a bag buddy or a squirt of something else.

You can phase out the Nova after your tank is running a while and fish
are in good shape.



--

-------------------------------------
For email remove junk
leaving the IP Addrress
Thats all from Racf
-------------------------------------
"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
et...
Stan,
Thanks for that info. Actually I probably should create a new thread

for
this. So I apologize in advance. I use a product by Aquarium Pharm.

called
tap water filter. It claims to remove chlorine and other metals from

the
water. I use this water on my FOWLR (fish only with live rock) salt

tank.
So far I have no complaints with it. I recently setup a 29 gallon

freshwater
tank and it is becoming a planted tank. So I ask my LFS if I would

need to
add anything to the water, since with the sal****er tank I add the sea

salt
mix. He said that I would need to replace the electrolytes in the

fresh
water since I was removing some of the trace elements as well as bad

stuff
in the water. I don't recall the product he recommended but do you

believe
that he is trying to sell me something else or is there merit in his
recommendation? At this point I still use tap water and treat it with

a
dechlorinator. I've been too lazy to actually use the "filtered"

water. What
do you think?

Thanks,
Vinny

"Stan" wrote in message
...
Yes....sometimes. For Apistos just straight RO. For breeding

Angels
just straight RO. For Angel grow-out, I gradually adapt them back

to my
tap water...very hard and pH of 8.2. Growing Discus: I mix in

Calcium
Sulfate, Sea Salt, and Epsom salts and sometimes a bit of baking

soda.
If I were breeding them, it would be straight RO.

The Apisto and Angel breeder tanks stay around a TDS of 40 - 80. I
change 1/2 my water every week. I dose some plant supplements that

add
some minerals.


"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
t...
Stan,
Do you use any additives to the RO water?
Thanks
Vinny

"Stan" wrote in message
...
I have. I bought an RO unit so I could manage my environments
better.
Since getting into RO and after buying a conductivity meter I

focus
a
lot less on pH and a lot more on the conductivity.

At sears in the water treatment department, they sell a Hanna

TDS
meter
for about $20. Its says TDS, but really its conductivity. That
meter
will be a good investment.

For a while I bought RO water from the grocery store for a 20

gallon
long Apisto tank. I paid about $180 for a 80 gallon per day RO
unit.
It produces about 60 gpd at my city waters temp. For me, it was

a
great
thing, but I have a basement with plenty of room for all the

gear
and
storage containers.

Once you understand your water conditions you can decide if it

meets
your needs or if you need to alter your choice of fish types.



"D&M" wrote in message
...
Just curious if anyone has ever had a problem with high
alkalinity? My
tester only reads up to 240ppm, and it's way past that, which
accounts
for
my high pH, but besides high pH, has anyone ever had any other
problems?
I've heard of problems with plants and some fish, most was
directed
toward
the pH levels involved, but that was about it.

Cheers














  #6  
Old July 15th 03, 12:48 AM
Racf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Alkalinity problems? The pH Myths and the Aquaria Product Marketers Lies


"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
news
Will do. Can you post some links to data about how to use the TDS "

total
dissolved solids " data. Sounds very interesting.



Here is a real juicy article I found doing a www.google.com search for:

osmotic shock

then by:

fish gills

This should be required reading:
Muriatic Acid

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

a.. To: killietalk at aka_org
b.. Subject: Muriatic Acid
c.. From: gunnar asblom agakilli at algonet_se
d.. Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:56:33 -0800
e.. References: 007001bf6aa4$ba801440$f504f8d1 at ldd_net
38938DF2.878E9A0D at home_com

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

Wright Huntley wrote:

Richard & Carol Dippold wrote:

I have seen muriatic acid used to lower pH of water.
Sold in LFS it was a lot more expensive than the muriatic acid in
the hardware store. If I get the hardware store brand do I have to

do
anything to it before use? What are the disadvantage of using it

over
other pH lowering chemicals?


As George says, HCl is extremely corrosive and very dangerous to use

around
water.

Why do you want to tinker with pH, anyway? It's *much* less important

than
the stores claim.

The fish can't feel/taste it. Honest!

If you don't change water enough, and don't have good enough plant

growth,
the fish-waste ammonium *can* turn to toxic ammonia at higher pH,

burning
your fish's gills and skin. Do your water changes faithfully, and that

is
simply no problem.


Jungle makes a pH stabilizer or buffer to maintain the pH at 6.5.
If you water has a high pH (7.9) with a lot of buffers in it dose

adding
more buffers from this product help keep the pH down? If it dose

than
are the buffers for high pH and low pH must different ???


The combination just creates a chemical soup that is bound to be worse

for
your fish than simple clean water, changed frequently. Some are pure

algae
fertilizers, BTW.

The stores like to propagate the pH mythology, as they can teach

morons how
to test for it and can sell you expensive kits that are easy to use.

Then
they sell buffers. All are a waste of time and money, IMHO, and

usually do
more harm than good.

Then, when the chemicals cause an algae bloom, they can sell you

algaecide
products or deadly fish that suck your other fishes scales at night

(Chinese
Algae Eaters) and create even more repeat business!

The most important water parameter, IMHO, is total dissolved solids

(tds).
Except for the eggs of a few rain forest fish, the exact solids seem

to be
fairly unimportant. In those rare cases, the amount of Calcium (GH)

*may*
have some effect on hatching ability (the jury's still out on that).
Otherwise tds is closely related to osmotic pressure. That's a thing

that
allows fish with "salty" blood to live in fresh water. If you shock a

fish
by dumping from hard, high tds, water into very soft, low tds, water,

the
fresh water pours across the membranes and can explode cells in gills

and
skin. It takes a fish up to hours to adjust the three-level regulation
system to keep cell fluids in balance. Going the other way abruptly

can
dehydrate cells, but tends to be a bit less fatal. That's why we often

have
to drip acclimate new fish over a period of a few hours.

Hard (high tds) water tends to have a higher pH, because CaCO3 and

MgCO3
(and their bicarbonates) are common buffers for the higher pH. Soft

water
(low tds) is often below 7 in pH because dissolved atmospheric CO2

drives
the pH down and buffers are absent. Dumping the fish from the former

water
to the latter almost always kills it, even with temp. (and even pH)

exactly
matched. The easy-to-measure thing was the pH difference, so the

mythology
of "pH shock" persists.

I routinely subject fish to huge pH shifts, as much as two full

points, and
can observe no effects whatsoever. Scheel, in his Atlas, said he did

as much
as three points with the same result.

The point of all this is to recognize what is important to your fish

and
ignore the lfs mythology.

On the very rare occasions when I wish to recreate black-water or
rain-forest conditions for a new wild fish, I'll first soften the

water by
adding lots of RO or equivalent, then use peat and/or oak leaves to

provide
gentle humic acids to overcome any residual buffering and drop the pH

to a
desired level. Peat alone does not work on hard tap water in most

areas, for
you must lower buffering by dilution, first.

By the second or third generation, most of our killies adapt pretty

well to
our US tap water, which tends to be hard, high tds, and high pH (by

EPA
mandate) in most of the country. Those unfortunate enough to live in
soft-water areas can overcome the worst problems by adding a little

rock or
kosher salt to their tanks to gently raise the tds. That reduces
dramatically the osmotic stress across gill-cell membranes.

Cells usually contain fluids with a tds about like sea water. Ocean

fish
need nearly no osmotic regulatory system. As the water gets lower in

tds
(fresher), the osmotic pressure gets higher and the fish has to work

harder
to keep outside water from flooding and diluting body fluids. Pure
distilled, DI (deionized) or RO (Reverse Osmosis) water are the

toughest of
all on the fish. Tempering those with some tap water or salt is

usually a
good idea, and the fish will suffer far less stress.

If you use chemical buffers or acid, you should buy a $50 tds meter,

and
carefully adjust the chemistry of your new change water, every time,

so it
does not shock the fish. If you don't, they will not breed and will

always
be subject to every disease and parasite that comes along. Then the

lfs can
sell you some *more* "cures."

All of these admonitions apply equally well to eggs, for they may have
*less* ability to maintain fluid properties in changing tds water than

fish,
with their complex 3-level osmotic-barrier system.

Use your tap water as is, and partially change it frequently. That way

you
minimize stresses on your fish at each change and maximize your

ability to
keep and breed them.

Wright

--
Wright Huntley, Fremont CA, USA, 510 494-8679 huntleyone at home dot

com

"DEMOCRACY" is two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch.
"LIBERTY" is a well-armed lamb denying enforcement of the vote.
*** http://www.self-gov.org/index.html ***
---------------
See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe

Someones may remember my qestions about karbonates,as most of us knew
there is a relationship betwen Ph and karbonates.It means then we lower
the carbonats we lower the Ph.I running my tanks with wery low carbonats
wich will give me low Ph,unfortionaly the Ph can go to low but it is not
a quick process so if we are observant at our tanks we can take
nessesary
precausions like add CACO3.How to see thath Ph is too low?We can messure
with a Phmeter or paper,but other things also happens as duckweed goes
white and snails climed up of the tank.My water is a exelent breeding
water and fryes comes in the tanks eggproduction is wery high diapterons
is not more diffcult to breed than striatum.Plants growt is wery good
(high CO2)The plants growt so good so I nearly dont have to change
water,I remove javamoss instead.Ph is betwen 5-6 but the fishes can take
down to 4,5 and some down to 4.A help to runn low Ph is to use seasalt
to keep the osmotic pressure upp have 1000-2000 microsiemens in my
tanks.My
feeling is thath it is nessesary or make it easier than we want to breed
many killies to keep the carbonates low.In such water as I have the
fungus doesent appear wich makes the eggstoring much easier.For the ones
ho knew German measuring system I have betwen 0,5-1 in german karbonat
degres.
Hope you can read my bad English.
Gunnar Aasblom.
---------------
See http://www.aka.org/AKA/subkillietalk.html to unsubscribe

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
References:
a.. Muriatic Acid
a.. From: "Richard & Carol Dippold" dipdel5 at ldd_net
b.. Muriatic Acid
a.. From: Wright Huntley huntley1 at home_com




"Racf" wrote in message
...

"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
et...
The declorinator as I call it is actually "pH 7.0 Seachem Neutral
Regulator".


Sounds like you could do without it....and use Amquel.


"Racf" wrote in

message
...
Stan here, using my original handle again.

If the tap water filter is a Deionizer (DI) then you should
re-constitute the water maybe a little. If it just a carbon

filter
then
sure it removes metals and chlorine, but the salts and most

minerals
go
right through it. Electrolytes are key to fresh water fish.

They
are in
water unless great pain is taken to remove them, like RO/DI.

Tap water should be OK.

Of course there are always exceptions for weird fish, but they

are
exceptions. New fish from the store will need some extra

protection
and
special acclimation to your tank. The key is the

TDS/conductivity
of
the source and target water. Get a conductivity meter or a TDS

meter
(which is really the same thing in the range us humans could

afford).
Do not worry about the pH unless your gonna inject CO2 and all

that
baloney.

Products you need:

Amquel
NovaAqua
PolyAqua

There are all Kordon products. Sure there are many others on

the
market, but they were first and some believe the best. You will

use
the
Amquel the most followed by the other two when dealing with

transferring
fish. The Poly is the most extreme fish care. It puts a slime

coat
on
a fish like nothing else you will ever see.

I imagine your declorinator will be OK, but its probably not
Amquel.....and it takes care of Chlorine, chloramine, and free

ammonia.

Anyway, acclimate new fish via the drip method. Slowly match up

the
TDS
readings between the source water (fish bag) to your tank. Slow

slow
slow. No more than a TDS change of 50 per 1/2 hour......

Of course you want to make sure the fish you buy are not already

jacked.
Since you have a reef tank I guess you probably into this stuff

pretty
much except fresh water varies big time, while salt water really

is
salt
water....

Again, do not worry about the pH....although once in a blue moon

you
may
want to peek.

PS. Take your TDS meter to the fish store and measure the tank

your
fish is coming out of. They many times add something to the

bagged
water like a bag buddy or a squirt of something else.

You can phase out the Nova after your tank is running a while

and
fish
are in good shape.



--

-------------------------------------
For email remove junk
leaving the IP Addrress
Thats all from Racf
-------------------------------------
"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
et...
Stan,
Thanks for that info. Actually I probably should create a new

thread
for
this. So I apologize in advance. I use a product by Aquarium

Pharm.
called
tap water filter. It claims to remove chlorine and other

metals
from
the
water. I use this water on my FOWLR (fish only with live rock)

salt
tank.
So far I have no complaints with it. I recently setup a 29

gallon
freshwater
tank and it is becoming a planted tank. So I ask my LFS if I

would
need to
add anything to the water, since with the sal****er tank I add

the
sea
salt
mix. He said that I would need to replace the electrolytes in

the
fresh
water since I was removing some of the trace elements as well

as
bad
stuff
in the water. I don't recall the product he recommended but do

you
believe
that he is trying to sell me something else or is there merit

in
his
recommendation? At this point I still use tap water and treat

it
with
a
dechlorinator. I've been too lazy to actually use the

"filtered"
water. What
do you think?

Thanks,
Vinny

"Stan" wrote in message
...
Yes....sometimes. For Apistos just straight RO. For

breeding
Angels
just straight RO. For Angel grow-out, I gradually adapt

them
back
to my
tap water...very hard and pH of 8.2. Growing Discus: I mix

in
Calcium
Sulfate, Sea Salt, and Epsom salts and sometimes a bit of

baking
soda.
If I were breeding them, it would be straight RO.

The Apisto and Angel breeder tanks stay around a TDS of 40 -

80.
I
change 1/2 my water every week. I dose some plant

supplements
that
add
some minerals.


"Vincent Femia" wrote in message
t...
Stan,
Do you use any additives to the RO water?
Thanks
Vinny

"Stan" wrote in message
...
I have. I bought an RO unit so I could manage my

environments
better.
Since getting into RO and after buying a conductivity

meter
I
focus
a
lot less on pH and a lot more on the conductivity.

At sears in the water treatment department, they sell a

Hanna
TDS
meter
for about $20. Its says TDS, but really its

conductivity.
That
meter
will be a good investment.

For a while I bought RO water from the grocery store for

a
20
gallon
long Apisto tank. I paid about $180 for a 80 gallon per

day
RO
unit.
It produces about 60 gpd at my city waters temp. For

me, it
was
a
great
thing, but I have a basement with plenty of room for all

the
gear
and
storage containers.

Once you understand your water conditions you can decide

if
it
meets
your needs or if you need to alter your choice of fish

types.



"D&M" wrote in message
...
Just curious if anyone has ever had a problem with

high
alkalinity? My
tester only reads up to 240ppm, and it's way past

that,
which
accounts
for
my high pH, but besides high pH, has anyone ever had

any
other
problems?
I've heard of problems with plants and some fish, most

was
directed
toward
the pH levels involved, but that was about it.

Cheers




















 




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