Timing way off - replacement engine in '93 Accord

Put in a replacement engine in a car. When I went to adjust the timing, the
15 degree BTDC mark was way up so that I had to look up in the timing hole
to see it (could not look straight in and see it). I estimated roughly that
it was another 15 to 20 degrees out. The check engine light is ON. The
engine ran very smoothly.

After my daughter's '93 Accord's engine "died" I came across a
well-recommended place with low-mileage replacement engines (from Japan) and
got a good deal on a very clean 2.0 litre engine.
Replaced all seals, used old intake and exhaust manifold, and old wiring
harness.
Used the old distributor and coil due to external vs internal coil and
associated wiring differences.
Kept the new motor's sensors (that were in the block) but the fuel-injection
and stuff from the old engine came along with the intake manifold.

Verified that "T" on the flywheel (backplate) corresponded to highest point
on #1 cylinder.
Triple checked timing marks for timing belt (3rd time after running it for a
little).
Absolutely certain that the distributor is correctly set in the motor.

Per the Hayes manual I did put a jumper in the blue connector in the
passenger compartment to perform the timing check.

That is when I took off the valve cover and top timing belt cover and used a
straight-edge to triple-check that the timing belt was not off by a tooth.
It was dead on with the top of the head.

A Honda technician suggested that either my timing light is off, or the
car's computer may be trying to compensate for something, causing the timing
to be way advanced. He mentioned something about another jumper under the
hood, but the manual only mentioned the one inside the car. The guy further
suggested trying to drive it and see if it revs up well, does not bog down,
runs without pinging, etc. If it does, he thought it should be fine.

Has anyone run across this before? Is there any way to "reset" the computer
if that is the problem? Might there be a bad sensor involved?

Trying to keep 5 cars running and this one is taking an inordinate amount of
time.

TIA,
--
KWW

"KWW" > wrote in
:

> Put in a replacement engine in a car. When I went to adjust the
> timing, the 15 degree BTDC mark was way up so that I had to look up in
> the timing hole to see it (could not look straight in and see it). I
> estimated roughly that it was another 15 to 20 degrees out. The check
> engine light is ON.


So what's the error code stored? Might give a clue as to what's wrong.

For your car:
Access service check connector (located under dashboard on passenger side)
(H7). Short check connector with paer clip and turn ignition on and observe
Check Engine light for codes.

There may be long and short blinks, and may be more than one code stored.
<long><short> pause <long><long><short> = codes 11 and 21.


<snip>


>
> A Honda technician suggested that either my timing light is off, or
> the car's computer may be trying to compensate for something, causing
> the timing to be way advanced. He mentioned something about another
> jumper under the hood, but the manual only mentioned the one inside
> the car.



Silly question, but you ARE attaching your timing light to the #1 cylinder?


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

KWW wrote:
> Put in a replacement engine in a car. When I went to adjust the timing, the
> 15 degree BTDC mark was way up so that I had to look up in the timing hole
> to see it (could not look straight in and see it). I estimated roughly that
> it was another 15 to 20 degrees out. The check engine light is ON. The
> engine ran very smoothly.

i thought all the ignition timing marks were on the pulley wheel, but
let's move on... and you need to let us know the code.

>
> After my daughter's '93 Accord's engine "died" I came across a
> well-recommended place with low-mileage replacement engines (from Japan) and
> got a good deal on a very clean 2.0 litre engine.
> Replaced all seals, used old intake and exhaust manifold, and old wiring
> harness.
> Used the old distributor and coil due to external vs internal coil and
> associated wiring differences.

ok, to fire at the right time, the computer needs a sensor to let it
know where tdc is.

> Kept the new motor's sensors (that were in the block)

are they a different style/location or merely "new" as in new to you?
if you're using the old distributor/sensor kit, you also need the old
sensors, or at least, the timing sensor, and it needs to work exactly
the same as before.

> but the fuel-injection
> and stuff from the old engine came along with the intake manifold.
>
> Verified that "T" on the flywheel (backplate) corresponded to highest point
> on #1 cylinder.
> Triple checked timing marks for timing belt (3rd time after running it for a
> little).
> Absolutely certain that the distributor is correctly set in the motor.

haynes manuals are abysmal. check with the helm manual, or there's
online sources for this info - go to tegger.com & poke about. on the
civic, different models use different timing regimes on what is
apparently the same motor, so be sure you're using the right one in this
case too.

>
> Per the Hayes manual I did put a jumper in the blue connector in the
> passenger compartment to perform the timing check.

sounds right.

>
> That is when I took off the valve cover and top timing belt cover and used a
> straight-edge to triple-check that the timing belt was not off by a tooth.
> It was dead on with the top of the head.
>
> A Honda technician suggested that either my timing light is off,

possible. make sure you have a clean cable run so it's not picking up
stray signal. and if it's ok on your other cars, it should be ok here.

> or the
> car's computer may be trying to compensate for something,

possible, but if it's in "safe" mode, it's usually retarded, not advanced.

> causing the timing
> to be way advanced. He mentioned something about another jumper under the
> hood,

on older models. it was moved inside for yours.

> but the manual only mentioned the one inside the car. The guy further
> suggested trying to drive it and see if it revs up well, does not bog down,
> runs without pinging, etc. If it does, he thought it should be fine.

ugh.

>
> Has anyone run across this before? Is there any way to "reset" the computer
> if that is the problem? Might there be a bad sensor involved?

revert to the old sensors, use the pulley wheel timing marks, and take
one last look at the cam timing.

>
> Trying to keep 5 cars running and this one is taking an inordinate amount of
> time.
>
> TIA,

jim beam wrote:
> KWW wrote:
>
>> Put in a replacement engine in a car. When I went to adjust the
>> timing, the 15 degree BTDC mark was way up so that I had to look up in
>> the timing hole to see it (could not look straight in and see it). I
>> estimated roughly that it was another 15 to 20 degrees out. The check
>> engine light is ON. The engine ran very smoothly.
>
>
> i thought all the ignition timing marks were on the pulley wheel, but
> let's move on... and you need to let us know the code.
>
>>
>> After my daughter's '93 Accord's engine "died" I came across a
>> well-recommended place with low-mileage replacement engines (from
>> Japan) and got a good deal on a very clean 2.0 litre engine.
>> Replaced all seals, used old intake and exhaust manifold, and old
>> wiring harness.
>> Used the old distributor and coil due to external vs internal coil and
>> associated wiring differences.
>
>
> ok, to fire at the right time, the computer needs a sensor to let it
> know where tdc is.
>
>> Kept the new motor's sensors (that were in the block)
>
>
> are they a different style/location or merely "new" as in new to you? if
> you're using the old distributor/sensor kit, you also need the old
> sensors, or at least, the timing sensor, and it needs to work exactly
> the same as before.
>
>> but the fuel-injection and stuff from the old engine came along with
>> the intake manifold.
>>
>> Verified that "T" on the flywheel (backplate) corresponded to highest
>> point on #1 cylinder.
>> Triple checked timing marks for timing belt (3rd time after running it
>> for a little).
>> Absolutely certain that the distributor is correctly set in the motor.
>
>
> haynes manuals are abysmal. check with the helm manual, or there's
> online sources for this info - go to tegger.com & poke about. on the
> civic, different models use different timing regimes on what is
> apparently the same motor, so be sure you're using the right one in this
> case too.
>
>>
>> Per the Hayes manual I did put a jumper in the blue connector in the
>> passenger compartment to perform the timing check.
>
>
> sounds right.
>
>>
>> That is when I took off the valve cover and top timing belt cover and
>> used a straight-edge to triple-check that the timing belt was not off
>> by a tooth. It was dead on with the top of the head.
>>
>> A Honda technician suggested that either my timing light is off,
>
>
> possible. make sure you have a clean cable run so it's not picking up
> stray signal. and if it's ok on your other cars, it should be ok here.
>
>> or the car's computer may be trying to compensate for something,
>
>
> possible, but if it's in "safe" mode, it's usually retarded, not advanced.
>
>> causing the timing to be way advanced. He mentioned something about
>> another jumper under the hood,
>
>
> on older models. it was moved inside for yours.
>
>> but the manual only mentioned the one inside the car. The guy further
>> suggested trying to drive it and see if it revs up well, does not bog
>> down, runs without pinging, etc. If it does, he thought it should be
>> fine.
>
>
> ugh.
>
>>
>> Has anyone run across this before? Is there any way to "reset" the
>> computer if that is the problem? Might there be a bad sensor involved?
>
>
> revert to the old sensors, use the pulley wheel timing marks, and take
> one last look at the cam timing.

i should add: if this motor had a different style [internal coil]
distributor, it makes me suspicious of there being a difference
associated with the cam compared to your old [external coil] motor.
manufacturers often change stuff like this to muddy the water on
commodity swaps - or at least, to make sure anyone doing it knows what
they're about. do the two motors have the same model #? sounds like
the new motor is updated.

>
>>
>> Trying to keep 5 cars running and this one is taking an inordinate
>> amount of time.
>>
>> TIA,

"KWW" > wrote
> Put in a replacement engine in a car.

Can you please verifiy here that the old and new engines
have the same # stamped on them?

Is the car fully warmed up (fan comes on TWICE, then you
check) when you try to adjust the timing (with service check
connector shorted)?

> When I went to adjust the timing, the
> 15 degree BTDC mark was way up so that I had to look up in
the timing hole
> to see it (could not look straight in and see it). I
estimated roughly that
> it was another 15 to 20 degrees out. The check engine
light is ON. The
> engine ran very smoothly.

> Triple checked timing marks for timing belt (3rd time
after running it for a
> little).
> Absolutely certain that the distributor is correctly set
in the motor.

What does the above mean?

You did loosen the distributor housing hold-down bolts and
attempt to get the timing right by rotating the housing,
didn't you?

> Per the Hayes manual I did put a jumper in the blue
connector in the
> passenger compartment to perform the timing check.
>
> That is when I took off the valve cover and top timing
belt cover and used a
> straight-edge to triple-check that the timing belt was not
off by a tooth.
> It was dead on with the top of the head.

I know you said you checked it thrice, but IIRC, being
unable to get anywhere in the neighborhood of the three, red
BTDC marks and being 15-20 degrees off still suggests being
off by a tooth. That's maybe not what you want to hear, but
sometimes a systematic approach, when repeated enough,
causes one to overlook simple things...

Thanks for all of the advice! The results were as follows:

1) Went over all the connections/etc to make sure that nothing was loose or
forgotten.... on the back side of the engine, behind the intake housing, I
noticed what appeared to be a vaccuum hose that might not be attached. It
was hard to tell/see and sure enough, it was not attached to the spot on
the back of the intake housing.

2) Check engine light was only ON when the jumper was in for timing. I took
the jumper out to "test drive" it per the technician's suggestion and the
light was not ON.

3) After engine got hot, bled the remainder of the air from the cooling
system and then rechecked the timing, because it ran very nicely. Well,
when it was both hot and the vac hoses were all connected, it timed fine. I
had to let it warm up again so that the timing settled down those last few
degrees - when it kicked down into low idle it changed about 5 degrees...
and was easily able to be adjusted.

What a relief! Thanks again for ALL the help. This has been quite a
project. Wouldn't have been as bad if it were the only project I had to
complete.
--
KWW

"Elle" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "KWW" > wrote
>> Put in a replacement engine in a car.
>
> Can you please verifiy here that the old and new engines
> have the same # stamped on them?
>
> Is the car fully warmed up (fan comes on TWICE, then you
> check) when you try to adjust the timing (with service check
> connector shorted)?
>
>> When I went to adjust the timing, the
>> 15 degree BTDC mark was way up so that I had to look up in
> the timing hole
>> to see it (could not look straight in and see it). I
> estimated roughly that
>> it was another 15 to 20 degrees out. The check engine
> light is ON. The
>> engine ran very smoothly.
>
>> Triple checked timing marks for timing belt (3rd time
> after running it for a
>> little).
>> Absolutely certain that the distributor is correctly set
> in the motor.
>
> What does the above mean?
>
> You did loosen the distributor housing hold-down bolts and
> attempt to get the timing right by rotating the housing,
> didn't you?
>
>> Per the Hayes manual I did put a jumper in the blue
> connector in the
>> passenger compartment to perform the timing check.
>>
>> That is when I took off the valve cover and top timing
> belt cover and used a
>> straight-edge to triple-check that the timing belt was not
> off by a tooth.
>> It was dead on with the top of the head.
>
> I know you said you checked it thrice, but IIRC, being
> unable to get anywhere in the neighborhood of the three, red
> BTDC marks and being 15-20 degrees off still suggests being
> off by a tooth. That's maybe not what you want to hear, but
> sometimes a systematic approach, when repeated enough,
> causes one to overlook simple things...
>
>

"KWW" > wrote
> Thanks for all of the advice! The results were as follows:
>
> 1) Went over all the connections/etc to make sure that
nothing was loose or
> forgotten.... on the back side of the engine, behind the
intake housing, I
> noticed what appeared to be a vaccuum hose that might not
be attached. It
> was hard to tell/see and sure enough, it was not attached
to the spot on
> the back of the intake housing.
>
> 2) Check engine light was only ON when the jumper was in
for timing. I took
> the jumper out to "test drive" it per the technician's
suggestion and the
> light was not ON.
>
> 3) After engine got hot, bled the remainder of the air
from the cooling
> system and then rechecked the timing, because it ran very
nicely. Well,
> when it was both hot and the vac hoses were all connected,
it timed fine. I
> had to let it warm up again so that the timing settled
down those last few
> degrees - when it kicked down into low idle it changed
about 5 degrees...
> and was easily able to be adjusted.

Nice update. It confirms some timing-setting problems I was
having a month or so ago. It should help others in the
future.

> What a relief! Thanks again for ALL the help. This has
been quite a
> project. Wouldn't have been as bad if it were the only
project I had to
> complete.

Way to troubleshoot!