Timing 80 degrees off?!?

Whoof! Check this out.
I went out to recheck timing with a degree-able timing light this
afternoon and couldn't find the mark. (Been working with octane and timing
to get rid of a slight rattle.) I used a white crayon to mark it, then
orange, then sharpies but still couldn't see the darned thing in daylight.
"Hmm. I'll just wait til tonight."
I finally found it tonight... somewhere around 80 degrees off! (This
measured in cam degrees, so, almost the far side of the balancer.) Since I
totally screwed timing in the day, I eventually tried timing from the #2
cylinder (yeah, I know that's not how you do it but it was almost right on
#2 It runs really smooth now but motor pings like a can-o-bearings upon
anything more aggressive than smooth throttle (goose it, get on it, etc.)
It's a Chevy 5.7L V8 with TPI and, yes, I disconnected the bypass. I put
the engine together right, numbered all the wires, installed the HEI
distributor in the correct position, put in a new timing chain, etc. So,
anybody had this?
I don't think the timing chain jumped since it's new and slackless.
There's no slop in the ignition, apparently, since the timing light shows
the timing mark's rock-solid steady. Harmonic balancer outer ring slipped?
Ideas anyone? Troubleshooting tips? How many things could it be?!
Drink
P.S. Next time, I'll confirm timing mark position upon assembly and make a
hashmark between the inner/outer ring on the balancer.
'76 CJ-7
'87 Chevy 5.7L V-8, TPI
NV4500, Dana300

Check your balancer against the actual Top dead center using a
screwdriver to follow the piston up.
Chevys run best at thirty eight degree total. Light springs to
reach the total by two grand. I would also mark forty on your balancer
to know your light is working correctly.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Drink wrote:
>
> Whoof! Check this out.
> I went out to recheck timing with a degree-able timing light this
> afternoon and couldn't find the mark. (Been working with octane and timing
> to get rid of a slight rattle.) I used a white crayon to mark it, then
> orange, then sharpies but still couldn't see the darned thing in daylight.
> "Hmm. I'll just wait til tonight."
> I finally found it tonight... somewhere around 80 degrees off! (This
> measured in cam degrees, so, almost the far side of the balancer.) Since I
> totally screwed timing in the day, I eventually tried timing from the #2
> cylinder (yeah, I know that's not how you do it but it was almost right on
> #2 It runs really smooth now but motor pings like a can-o-bearings upon
> anything more aggressive than smooth throttle (goose it, get on it, etc.)
> It's a Chevy 5.7L V8 with TPI and, yes, I disconnected the bypass. I put
> the engine together right, numbered all the wires, installed the HEI
> distributor in the correct position, put in a new timing chain, etc. So,
> anybody had this?
> I don't think the timing chain jumped since it's new and slackless.
> There's no slop in the ignition, apparently, since the timing light shows
> the timing mark's rock-solid steady. Harmonic balancer outer ring slipped?
> Ideas anyone? Troubleshooting tips? How many things could it be?!
> Drink
> P.S. Next time, I'll confirm timing mark position upon assembly and make a
> hashmark between the inner/outer ring on the balancer.
> '76 CJ-7
> '87 Chevy 5.7L V-8, TPI
> NV4500, Dana300

Drink did pass the time by typing:
> Harmonic balancer outer ring slipped?

That would be my first thought.

> Ideas anyone? Troubleshooting tips? How many things could it be?!

Like bill says, find TDC on cyl#1 and go from there.

By the way, plain ol chalk works great for timing marks. That dayglo
stuff or the plain ol white chalk.

--
DougW

That shouldn't be a problem for the time being, should it? The balancer's
not weighted on the 350 and I should be able to get it timed correctly til I
can get a new one.

P.S. I guess I'll stay off the gas so I don't throw the ring completely
off. I know it's not a hot rod but, man!, I guess I've enjoyed the newfound
power of an injected V-8 over my old 258 <sheepish grin>...
P.P.S. The plan's perfect and going well... I'll just keeping breaking it
and beefing the broke parts til it'll take a magnum round and keep on
ticking
Drink
"L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" > wrote in message
...
> Check your balancer against the actual Top dead center using a
> screwdriver to follow the piston up.
> Chevys run best at thirty eight degree total. Light springs to
> reach the total by two grand. I would also mark forty on your balancer
> to know your light is working correctly.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> http://www.billhughes.com/
>
> Drink wrote:
>>
>> Whoof! Check this out.
>> I went out to recheck timing with a degree-able timing light this
>> afternoon and couldn't find the mark. (Been working with octane and
>> timing
>> to get rid of a slight rattle.) I used a white crayon to mark it, then
>> orange, then sharpies but still couldn't see the darned thing in
>> daylight.
>> "Hmm. I'll just wait til tonight."
>> I finally found it tonight... somewhere around 80 degrees off! (This
>> measured in cam degrees, so, almost the far side of the balancer.) Since
>> I
>> totally screwed timing in the day, I eventually tried timing from the #2
>> cylinder (yeah, I know that's not how you do it but it was almost right
>> on
>> #2 It runs really smooth now but motor pings like a can-o-bearings
>> upon
>> anything more aggressive than smooth throttle (goose it, get on it, etc.)
>> It's a Chevy 5.7L V8 with TPI and, yes, I disconnected the bypass. I
>> put
>> the engine together right, numbered all the wires, installed the HEI
>> distributor in the correct position, put in a new timing chain, etc. So,
>> anybody had this?
>> I don't think the timing chain jumped since it's new and slackless.
>> There's no slop in the ignition, apparently, since the timing light shows
>> the timing mark's rock-solid steady. Harmonic balancer outer ring
>> slipped?
>> Ideas anyone? Troubleshooting tips? How many things could it be?!
>> Drink
>> P.S. Next time, I'll confirm timing mark position upon assembly and make
>> a
>> hashmark between the inner/outer ring on the balancer.
>> '76 CJ-7
>> '87 Chevy 5.7L V-8, TPI
>> NV4500, Dana300

Nailed it. Went back out to take a second gander with a clear, logical
head. Looking at the harmonic balancer from the underside of the engine, I
can see that the outer ring's slipped, most definitely. Looks like the
outer has slipped backwards off the inner about 3/4" and barely scrubbed the
timing chain cover. This could get expensive...
I've got an '87 350 that should come out of the machinist' soon. I was
planning on eventually putting it and a 218 LT4 hot cam under the TPI (and
maybe a ported set of 186 fuelie heads) into the Jeep. Now, if I can get
the other motor back.
The sooner I can get the other block back, the sooner I can build up a
Trans Am and take it to the track instead of... Ahhh, who am I kiddin'?!
I'll still have fun with the Jeep and throw big, flumpy clods off-road!
But, I'll just drive one while working on the other. This is gonna be cool.
Oh, and Bill, I promise I won't make the Jeep any faster; no stroker cranks,
no nitrous, no 14:1 forged pistons. I couldn't put any more horses to the
dirt. Haha!

P.S. Hey Bill, I promised you a photo back before I put it together. I'm
almost done with the bugs so I'm sending you a couple photos via e-mail. It
turned out more than sweet and you gotta see this; I think you'll be able to
appreciate it! If anybody else's curious, let me know and I'll forward.
Drink

Drink did pass the time by typing:
> Nailed it. Went back out to take a second gander with a clear, logical
> head. Looking at the harmonic balancer from the underside of the engine, I
> can see that the outer ring's slipped, most definitely. Looks like the
> outer has slipped backwards off the inner about 3/4" and barely scrubbed the
> timing chain cover. This could get expensive...

Only if it slips far enough to cut the cover and drop oil.

Dunno about your application but replacing the HB on my 4.0 only took
part of a day. http://revbeergoggles.com/hb/

Fairly easy but having the right tools is a necessity. I could have
done it without removing the radiator if they had an installation tool
that was about 2" shorter. :/


--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
Banks Header - and BEER, in the fridge!

Replace the balancer, it really is critical in keeping the crank
from breaking, that's why the get three hundred bucks for them.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Drink wrote:
>
> Nailed it. Went back out to take a second gander with a clear, logical
> head. Looking at the harmonic balancer from the underside of the engine, I
> can see that the outer ring's slipped, most definitely. Looks like the
> outer has slipped backwards off the inner about 3/4" and barely scrubbed the
> timing chain cover. This could get expensive...
> I've got an '87 350 that should come out of the machinist' soon. I was
> planning on eventually putting it and a 218 LT4 hot cam under the TPI (and
> maybe a ported set of 186 fuelie heads) into the Jeep. Now, if I can get
> the other motor back.
> The sooner I can get the other block back, the sooner I can build up a
> Trans Am and take it to the track instead of... Ahhh, who am I kiddin'?!
> I'll still have fun with the Jeep and throw big, flumpy clods off-road!
> But, I'll just drive one while working on the other. This is gonna be cool.
> Oh, and Bill, I promise I won't make the Jeep any faster; no stroker cranks,
> no nitrous, no 14:1 forged pistons. I couldn't put any more horses to the
> dirt. Haha!
>
> P.S. Hey Bill, I promised you a photo back before I put it together. I'm
> almost done with the bugs so I'm sending you a couple photos via e-mail. It
> turned out more than sweet and you gotta see this; I think you'll be able to
> appreciate it! If anybody else's curious, let me know and I'll forward.
> Drink

Nah, I meant "expensive" because I'm gonna wind up having to build a
bracket racer engine for the T/A out of this one and put the other in the
Jeep Gawd knows how much I'll dip into to do that and It'll take a lot
longer than a day. Haha!
Drink

"DougW" > wrote in message
news:2H0uf.36618$Mi5.6492@dukeread07...
> Drink did pass the time by typing:
>> Nailed it. Went back out to take a second gander with a clear, logical
>> head. Looking at the harmonic balancer from the underside of the engine,
>> I
>> can see that the outer ring's slipped, most definitely. Looks like the
>> outer has slipped backwards off the inner about 3/4" and barely scrubbed
>> the
>> timing chain cover. This could get expensive...
>
> Only if it slips far enough to cut the cover and drop oil.
>
> Dunno about your application but replacing the HB on my 4.0 only took
> part of a day. http://revbeergoggles.com/hb/
>
> Fairly easy but having the right tools is a necessity. I could have
> done it without removing the radiator if they had an installation tool
> that was about 2" shorter. :/

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:55:38 -0800, L.W.(ßill) Hughes III
> wrote:

> Replace the balancer, it really is critical in keeping the crank
>from breaking, that's why the get three hundred bucks for them.

300 bucks for a harmonic balancer???? From where? Do they wear ski
masks and tote guns? Unless it's a LOT different from the one on my
'77 Cherokee, that's highway robbery! Have they changed? And nearly
all of the ones in salvage yards are perfectly good. (That's where I
got my current one, five years ago.) And rebuilt ones are probably
available, too.

Dan

> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/
>
>Drink wrote:
>>
>> Nailed it. Went back out to take a second gander with a clear, logical
>> head. Looking at the harmonic balancer from the underside of the engine, I
>> can see that the outer ring's slipped, most definitely. Looks like the
>> outer has slipped backwards off the inner about 3/4" and barely scrubbed the
>> timing chain cover. This could get expensive...
>> I've got an '87 350 that should come out of the machinist' soon. I was
>> planning on eventually putting it and a 218 LT4 hot cam under the TPI (and
>> maybe a ported set of 186 fuelie heads) into the Jeep. Now, if I can get
>> the other motor back.
>> The sooner I can get the other block back, the sooner I can build up a
>> Trans Am and take it to the track instead of... Ahhh, who am I kiddin'?!
>> I'll still have fun with the Jeep and throw big, flumpy clods off-road!
>> But, I'll just drive one while working on the other. This is gonna be cool.
>> Oh, and Bill, I promise I won't make the Jeep any faster; no stroker cranks,
>> no nitrous, no 14:1 forged pistons. I couldn't put any more horses to the
>> dirt. Haha!
>>
>> P.S. Hey Bill, I promised you a photo back before I put it together. I'm
>> almost done with the bugs so I'm sending you a couple photos via e-mail. It
>> turned out more than sweet and you gotta see this; I think you'll be able to
>> appreciate it! If anybody else's curious, let me know and I'll forward.
>> Drink

That may be the difference between us. I like to be King of the
Hill: http://www.billhughes.com/temp/balancer.jpg
http://www.billhughes.com/pismo.htm
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/temp/balancer.jpg

Hootowl wrote:
>
> 300 bucks for a harmonic balancer???? From where? Do they wear ski
> masks and tote guns? Unless it's a LOT different from the one on my
> '77 Cherokee, that's highway robbery! Have they changed? And nearly
> all of the ones in salvage yards are perfectly good. (That's where I
> got my current one, five years ago.) And rebuilt ones are probably
> available, too.
>
> Dan