WPost: Brain Immaturity Could Explain Teen Crash Rate

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Matthew Russotto wrote:

> >> Eliminating crashes is good. Why would you be against that?
> >
> >'Cause *stomp* NO FAIRRRRRRRR!!!!
>
> I post some reasonable objections

You posted no such thing. Your response amounted to "Is not! Is not! Is
not is not is not is not!"

In article .com>,
wrote:

> If I had a powerful car in most cases I would drive no
> faster than I do in my current car.

From most people here, I would accept that at face value and move on.
From you, however, that leaps off the screen as complete ********. Given
that you have never driven a "more powerful" car you have absolutely no
idea what you are talking about.

--
Mark Foster, Brighton, Sussex, UK
E-mail:
PGP Fingerprint: 3342 C02C 7BE8 3FE4 AAC5 8BB2 03B7 9263 DDF2 04C1
--------------------------------------------------
"There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
[Driving, HMSO]

Martin Brown wrote:

> Statistics are available from most national or regional governments if
> you ask or probe around on their websites. Inexperience coupled with
> teenage belief in their own immortality makes for some very bad
> judgement calls. You also have to scale by the fraction of the
> population represented by each age range 16-19 vs 60-85...
>

Can I ask a very couple of serious questions here.
Although posted to uk group, it appears that age study has very little
to do with the UK, but it is interesting to a driver in the UK to a point.

1) What type of driving instruction is required in the US (assuming this
is where the report comes from). Does it vary from state to state (as do
driving conditions), is there a bare minimum, is there a written/theory
type test/exam before the practical driving test

2) How much practical driving experience would an American teen need to
pass the driving test first time and be allowed un-restricted access to
all types of roads. And prior to getting their drivers license, what
roads to teens on learners permits have access to?

3) Is motor insurance compulsory in the states, and do teens have theres
loaded as a higher risk than say a more experienced or even just older
driver? In the UK, a young driver (passed at 17, the minimum age to hold
a full car license) may find that he is driving arround in a borderline
safe car, at a value of say £300, because that is all he/she can afford,
because his insurance on a semi wreck, may be arround £1200-1400 for
minumum cover, and into multi thousands of pounds if he tries to buy
anything that may be more powerful, better condition/quality, and
generally inherently safer, because of the higher risk that the
insurance companies see him/her as. Everyday on the motorway on the way
to work, I see little cars, that are barely more than petrol driven golf
trolleys, that look unsafe, and sound strained at 40, doing 70 and
screaming their nuts off. It's just wrong.

4) When a driving license is issued in the US, how long is it valid for?
In the UK, as long as you don't get enough penalties on your license to
lose it, it is yours until your 70th birthday, and then renewable in 3
year stints, after a signature on a form by a doctor. The only way to
lose your license is through a criminal driving ban, either from a
caught directly from a more serious offence, or from an accumulation of
points from more minor infringement such as a tyre below the legal tread
limit, a speeding offence, or another "minor" moving violation. Also
once you have held your license for 2 years, you can get upto 12 penalty
points, before your license is suspensed for a period judged by a judge
or magistrate, if you have held your license for less than 2 years, you
on can get 6 penalty points (say two bald tyres), and then you are not
only banned from driving for a period set, but you also have to resit
the theory test (at your cost), redo the practical driving test (again
at your cost), but the time spent driving on the test is extended, and
chances are, you will need to take refresher lessons from a qualified
driving instructor, at about £15-20 an hour, to get rid of bad habits,
to get yourself back to the standard needed to pass the UK basic car
driving test.

How does this compare and relate to the US, or other countries?

--
Carl Robson
"Sorry Sir the meatballs are orf"
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

wrote:

> John David Galt wrote:
>
>>Daniel J. Stern wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Matthew Russotto wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Of course, the _intended_ application is to justify more and
>
> harsher
>
>>>>>>restrictions with higher age limits.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Crash data show that's where the biggest problem is.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Without separating the effects of inexperience from the effects of
>
> age,
>
>>>>such data (presuming it isn't otherwise flawed) does not support
>
> harsher
>
>>>>restrictions with higher age limits.
>>>
>>>
>>>Teens crash most. Therefore, restricting teen driving means fewer
>
> crashes.
>
>>>That teenagers will stomp their widdle feet and go "No fair!" is
>>>immaterial.
>>
>>We all go through inexperience. If you raised the minimum driving
>
> age
>
>>to 25, then 25-28 year olds would be as dangerous as teenagers are
>
> now.
>
>>So live with it.
>
>
> Just because you believe this to be true doesn't imply that it *is*
> true.
>
> The implied claim is that teenagers have the same judgement as their
> 10-years-older counterparts.
>

He didn't say judgement, he said experience.

If a driver is a clown at 18, lives to get some experience, and proves
to be a better driver at 28 good.

But if that clown starts driving at 28, he does not have the same life
or driving experience that someone who has driven for 10 years does.


--
Carl Robson
"Sorry Sir the meatballs are orf"
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:23:52 -0500, "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote:

>On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Matthew Russotto wrote:
>
>> >So what's the deal with you blindly raving against age-based driving
>> >restrictions when they're so clearly warranted?
>>
>> I find them as clearly warranted as low speed limits, 0.02 blood alcohol
>> restrictions, and the various other restrictions invented by those who
>> like control for its own sake.
>
>What you "find" (you mean "think") is irrelevant; it's not supported by
>science.

Yeah - tell (astronaut) John H. Glenn Jr., Age 83, that he's too old to
drive...

Sleeker GT Phwoar wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Just because you believe this to be true doesn't imply that it *is*
> > true.
> >
> > The implied claim is that teenagers have the same judgement as
their
> > 10-years-older counterparts.
> >
>
> He didn't say judgement, he said experience.

You need to read the original post, so that when you opine, at least
your opinion has relevance.

> If a driver is a clown at 18, lives to get some experience, and
proves
> to be a better driver at 28 good.
>
> But if that clown starts driving at 28, he does not have the same
life
> or driving experience that someone who has driven for 10 years does.

But, again, do these two people have the same quality of judgement? If
your answer is anything other than "no", then what, exactly, is your
point?

HAND,

E.P.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Sleeker GT Phwoar wrote:

> 1) What type of driving instruction is required in the US

None. There are insurance discounts and lower age thresholds in some
states for would-be drivers who *do* complete an approved driving
instruction course, and for those who remain in school and get good
grades, but most all states have no requirement for driver training; if
you pass the licensure test, you get the licence. The tests vary by state,
but are by and large a pathetic joke. 10 or 20 multiple-choice questions
(invariably including: "True or false: it's OK to go faster than the speed
limit if you're only going 10 over, because everybody else does it"), and
*maybe* a 1/4-mile trip round the block. Maybe.

> How much practical driving experience would an American teen need to
> pass the driving test first time and be allowed un-restricted access to
> all types of roads.

None. Also, there are no restrictions on the type of vehicle a
newly-licenced driver can have. Some states have "graduated" licensure
schemes under which drivers under 21 years old (legal drinking age in the
US) are bannned from driving at night unless for work.

> And prior to getting their drivers license, what roads to teens on
> learners permits have access to?

All.

> 3) Is motor insurance compulsory in the states

In most states, yes.

> and do teens have theres loaded as a higher risk than say a more
> experienced or even just older driver?

Yes.

> 4) When a driving license is issued in the US, how long is it valid for?

Varies by state. Usually the first licence, obtained at age 16 or 18,
expires after a couple of years, and the next one expires at age 21, and
the one after that is good for 10 years or so. Renewal is a matter of
paying a fee, getting a new photograph taken, and *maybe* having a
15-second eye check.

> tyre below the legal tread limit

Most states have no periodic motor vehicle inspection scheme.

DS

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Sleeker GT Phwoar wrote:
>
>>1) What type of driving instruction is required in the US
>
> None. There are insurance discounts and lower age thresholds in some
> states for would-be drivers who *do* complete an approved driving
> instruction course, and for those who remain in school and get good
> grades, but most all states have no requirement for driver training; if
> you pass the licensure test, you get the licence. The tests vary by state,
> but are by and large a pathetic joke. 10 or 20 multiple-choice questions
> (invariably including: "True or false: it's OK to go faster than the speed
> limit if you're only going 10 over, because everybody else does it"), and
> *maybe* a 1/4-mile trip round the block. Maybe.

That was more or less what I was told in the 80's when I went to the US
for a while and had to drive (just days after passing my UK driving
test). I thought they were teasing me at the time but apparently it is
pretty hard to fail a US driving test in the mid-west.
I presume it is different in the big cities though?

>>4) When a driving license is issued in the US, how long is it valid for?

UK full driving licences valid until you are aged 70 always raise
eyebrows in the USA.

>>tyre below the legal tread limit
>
> Most states have no periodic motor vehicle inspection scheme.

I always find it scary watching derelict rust buckets on threadbare
slicks with bits dropping off staggering along in the fly-over states.

Is there really no equivalent of a road worthiness test at all?

You have me worried - presumably US Hire Cars from Avis/Dollar/Hertz etc
are maintained to reasonable international standards of roadworthimess
to avoid litigation? I always check hire cars for obvious faults.

Regards,
Martin Brown

In article >,
Martin Brown > wrote:

> Is there really no equivalent of a road worthiness test at all?

Nope. Whilst you can be cited for moving violations if you vehicle is
really falling apart, in general, if it passes smog testing, it's legal
in CA.

--
Mark Foster, Brighton, Sussex, UK
E-mail:
PGP Fingerprint: 3342 C02C 7BE8 3FE4 AAC5 8BB2 03B7 9263 DDF2 04C1
--------------------------------------------------
"There are no such useless words as...'I didn't have a chance.'"
[Driving, HMSO]

In article ich.edu>,
says...
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Sleeker GT Phwoar wrote:
>
> > 1) What type of driving instruction is required in the US
>
> None. There are insurance discounts and lower age thresholds in some
> states for would-be drivers who *do* complete an approved driving
> instruction course, and for those who remain in school and get good
> grades, but most all states have no requirement for driver training; if
> you pass the licensure test, you get the licence. The tests vary by state,
> but are by and large a pathetic joke. 10 or 20 multiple-choice questions
> (invariably including: "True or false: it's OK to go faster than the speed
> limit if you're only going 10 over, because everybody else does it"), and
> *maybe* a 1/4-mile trip round the block. Maybe.

From that I can see how a younger driver with less maturity and
experience before getting behind the wheel might be at more risk of
accident.

> > How much practical driving experience would an American teen need to
> > pass the driving test first time and be allowed un-restricted access to
> > all types of roads.
>
> None. Also, there are no restrictions on the type of vehicle a
> newly-licenced driver can have. Some states have "graduated" licensure
> schemes under which drivers under 21 years old (legal drinking age in the
> US) are bannned from driving at night unless for work.

OK, they are lookign at a scheme similar to this in the UK, but through
an insurance company that will use a Pay as You drive system, where you
get a monthly statement for your insurance like a cell phone bill, and
itr records time of day/night you were driving due to an electronic
gizmo fitted to the car, and day/night driving are charged at vastly
different rates.

> > And prior to getting their drivers license, what roads to teens on
> > learners permits have access to?
>
> All.

In the UK, learners aren't permitted to use Motorways (3 lane, 70MPH
limit, like freeways etc) until they have passed.

> > 3) Is motor insurance compulsory in the states
>
> In most states, yes.
>
> > and do teens have theres loaded as a higher risk than say a more
> > experienced or even just older driver?
>
> Yes.

Roughly to what degree? can sometime be loaded 5-10 times the level in
the UK for a young driver compared to his father/mother.

And it is actually a criminal offence to not have insurance, and the
government charges to tax to the purchaser on the insurance premium.

> > 4) When a driving license is issued in the US, how long is it valid for?
>
> Varies by state. Usually the first licence, obtained at age 16 or 18,
> expires after a couple of years, and the next one expires at age 21, and
> the one after that is good for 10 years or so. Renewal is a matter of
> paying a fee, getting a new photograph taken, and *maybe* having a
> 15-second eye check.
>
> > tyre below the legal tread limit
>
> Most states have no periodic motor vehicle inspection scheme.

While valid then, it does appear that the report is re US-centric then.

--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com