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Hobby Ethics



 
 
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  #51  
Old January 9th 04, 07:28 AM
Jim Morcombe
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Default Hobby Ethics

I think the issues of Lions and Pit Bulls are not really related to the
issues of pet fish.

We are talking about personal and immediate danger in one case and
environmental hazard in the other.

Besides, people who own Pit Bulls are all thugs.

Jim



Dick wrote in message
...
We are not discussing "hands off," rather the introduction of alien
fish to a native habitat or at least the potential. I can appreciate
the complaint of too much government intervention, but the other side
is chaos. We do have to drive on the proper side of the divider. We
do not complain of this law. The value is obvious. The question of
personal choice of pets is another mater. A older woman visiting a
woman that kept a lion as a pet, was mauled to death within the last
month. Then there are those pet owners that ador the Pit Bulls.

I have my own "pet" peaves, but do understand those that represent us
must balance the "rights of the individual" against the good of all.
I also accept that those trying to protect us make their own mistakes.

Democracy may not be the best form of government, but it is the best
form we know as of now.

On 7 Jan 2004 08:49:21 -0800,
) wrote:

I believe in a hands off approach.
Leave nature alone long enough and things work out. Conserve what you
have now feircely and try to protect it.

Humans always try to control nature and this often back fires.
Some restoratiion and creation work in conservation is worthy, some is
not. Adding mosquito fish is a bad idea IMO. Few fish bioloigist would
argue otherwise.

Regards,
Tom Barr




  #52  
Old January 9th 04, 08:19 PM
[email protected]
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Default Hobby Ethics

Dick wrote in message . ..
We are not discussing "hands off," rather the introduction of alien
fish to a native habitat or at least the potential.


This was posted to a plant list and I'll take the plant perspective as
I've done a substantial amount of weed science.
Plant folks don't go out and plant weeds to "save" them or moralize
over it the same way fish hobbyist do.

Some growers have planted weeds here in Florida for the Aquarium trade
and then come back and harvest and send them all over the USA.

Hydrillia is a prime example from the 1950's. Kuzu for erosional
damage from strip mining in KY/TN region. There are many examples.

I can appreciate
the complaint of too much government intervention, but the other side
is chaos.


I did not suggest that. I'm some kind of anarchist? I'm talking
about people/development leaving the environment alone, this includes
introducing weeds to the natural ecosystems. Removal of what's there
as far as weeds is a good idea generally but ideas can and do back
fire.

Hands off also cost less in the long and short run.
Ichetucknee springs was full of trash, burnt tires, cows wandering
through the place 30 years ago. They removed the trash, presearved it
as a state park and it is now one of the so called "prisitine" spring
examples here. The ecosystem restored itself after a few years and a
little work. It really is a surprising success story.

But now spetic tanks and other sources of nitrogen are increasing
greatly and causing algae blooms, this is not from nature but from
development. 15N isotope signatures have shown this.
Even years later we have a tough time keepin gout of the environment,
global changes will be more difficult to remediate.

We do have to drive on the proper side of the divider. We
do not complain of this law. The value is obvious. The question of
personal choice of pets is another mater. A older woman visiting a
woman that kept a lion as a pet, was mauled to death within the last
month. Then there are those pet owners that ador the Pit Bulls.


There are no bad dogs (or Lions), __only__ bad dog owners.

You are accountable. Your dog causes a problem, you go down for it.
Pit bulls are often trained to be mean/tough, but they are _not_ wild
animals like a Croc, lion etc something you would not take to the park
with kids around unless your the Croc hunter and know about safe
handling procedures.
Many folks got upset at him(the Croc hunter, Steve) for the baby issue
but I don't think the baby was all that at risk. It was not _needed_,
but the baby was in the most capable hands I know of, atrained
professional that knows everything Croc, we take our kids all over
unneeded every day in cars and the risk are greater there than in his
hands and croc I would argue.
And we are not "professional" drivers generally.

But the larger issue in policy making is one of __risk__, like
driving, insurance, war, you have to ask the question what are the
risk?

For aquarium owners for aquatic plants: low risk generally.
But there are few folks keeping plants generally but the lobby for
pond owners is rather high and the potential for some of these plants
to escape is higher.

Fish owners are much more likely to release non natives.
Same goes for plant and fish farmers, they are notorius for intro of
plants and fish all over the world, like Lake Victoria and Lates, or
Tilipia here in Florida, mosquito fish over most of the USA, Hydrilia
in Florida for the plant trade. We found a 3ft pacu in a lake in CA
after draining it. It'd been there for awhile. I swim with pleco's in
Florida, come on down, I'll show you them munching away.

Sports, food fishies did not introduce this fish. Hobby only.
Caulerpa gets a lot press in the west coast, but ballast ship water is
a much large seaweed problem, but they have lots of $ so we don't talk
much about that in the public, but folks own reef tanks SW tanks so it
gets into the news more.

The laws here are generally set up to minimize the risk, I was not
saying anything about anarchy, nor had a position either way except it
worked well for the environment for 4 billion years vs the humans way
of rapid mass extinction, those are good laws, but the right or not to
have some pets needs to be weighed with the risk.

Lions on a lease at the park with kids around is asking for it.
A dog trained to fight is asking for it.
Keeping Crypt cordata pink vein is not any threat in the USA.
Keeping Altums is no threat to folks/ecosystem in WI.
But some diseases could be transferred even in that case to the native
fish, but..........there's little risk of that ocurring.

There is risk associated with everything, but laws will not prevent
all risk, you cannot legislate stupidity and blind laws done for
reactionary purposes without good consideration is as bad as no law,
perhaps worse.

I doubt you'll please some folks about animal right but this is not
logical, they eat and kill baby plants, why is the same ethic not
placed on that form of life vs critters?
How dare they own, murder and enslave plants!
Lopping off their limbs, how in human is that?

Seriously though, we all have to kill something and eat it, it might
grow and be a plant or it might be some mad cow infested Pork, Chicken
or Beef.

I'm mainly a plant eater, but I don't consider it environmentally or
morally better.

I have my own "pet" peaves, but do understand those that represent us
must balance the "rights of the individual" against the good of all.
I also accept that those trying to protect us make their own mistakes.


Well, up to a point. Some make large mistakes and should be held
especially accountable. Like daipers, all politicians should be
changed frequently for the same reason.

But hopefully the balance will be fair and reasoable. If not, they
will not get my vote.

Regards,
Tom Barr

I believe in a hands off approach.
Leave nature alone long enough and things work out. Conserve what you
have now feircely and try to protect it.

Humans always try to control nature and this often back fires.
Some restoratiion and creation work in conservation is worthy, some is
not. Adding mosquito fish is a bad idea IMO. Few fish bioloigist would
argue otherwise.

Regards,
Tom Barr

  #53  
Old February 16th 04, 05:07 AM
Ray
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Posts: n/a
Default Hobby Ethics

ok I have to sound off now. I love my fish and my aquatic plants. first of
yes hobbists contribute a small problem to the introduction of new species
but very minor.most intruduction does come from goverment experts (that's an
oxymoron). I also keep some exotic fish and plants but I do love my fish
enuf that if I get tired of 'em and my plants I will dig a hole in the
ground and put them in and that be that. most of the problem around the
coasts are from international shipping boats and barges. I detest laws that
require me to get special liceneses or take special classes but I'de rather
have to do that then to be told that because of some idiots I am
irresponsible to keep what I want. But take afence or to no afence to
this...humans are medlers the common corn you eat used to be a wild plant
but now has come to be completly dependent on humans for propagation.
sometimes we screw up big time and when we do we just need to give a slight
hand of help to mother nature as she will make everything work out for the
best. Our inviroment is in a constant flux and we are but just tool in the
grand scheme of things. but untill our need for money is nullified we may
continue to do more damage then good. I'm a strong beliver in good laws and
in control but not banning something.there are no bad animals or fish or
plants....just bad and stupid humans that would rather throwit away rather
then dispose of properly.that unfortunatly I chalk up to our disposable
society. we never truly think what happens to items we just discard.
"Dick" wrote in message
...
Simple, while you are concerned about your "rights" the government has
to consider the welfare of the all the people. You may detest drunk
driving laws, but those injured or killed or whose property gets
damaged would ask you to consider their "rights" to security for
property and life.

You are not the center of the world!

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:18 GMT, LtWolfe wrote:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of residence.

Why do you seem so quick to
take away MY right? Because of what someone ELSE did? Why should I be

punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right? Besides, there are very few exotics doing

well, compared to the
number in the hobby, and natives in FL. A lot of exotics are from fish

farm releases (I'm sure YOU
don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY

actions. YOU are responsible
for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back

like that).

LtWolfe

"Toni" wrote in
hlink.net:


"LtWolfe" wrote in message
. ..
No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's
private
business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT
THE
OPRESSION!



I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.





 




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