Utah: Increasing Speed Limits Doesn't Kill

On Nov 6, 8:37*pm, "Rocky" > wrote:
> http://autos.aol.com/article/utah-speed-limit-tests

Hi Rocky,

Neat! As the article suggests, the 85th percentile is a commonly
accepted metric for determining maximum travel speed. Personally, I
believe this metric does not take into consideration certain drivers
who have the discipline to travel at higher speeds and know when to do
so (e.g., open road, little traffic, and clear conditions).

If your car is in proper care to travel safely at higher speeds and
the driver understands the environment in which he or she is driving,
then an arbitrary speed limit is moot and purely political.

A great example of driver discipline and limitless speed would be the
German autobahn. If a disciplined driver has a new BMW coupe and is
willing to use the left lane at 160 km/h, then by all means he or she
can do so. Perhaps go 180 km/h if he or she wishes. But it would be
foolish for that same driver to attempt high speed travel in a Yugo in
that same lane, especially if his or her tyres were bald.

At the same time, you probably wouldn't want a testerone-rabid
teenager to jump into the BMW coupe and drive 160 km/h, due to his
lack of experience driving at said speed. If danger gets presented on
the road, the inexperience could lead to a rash behaviour like over-
swerving or ignoring what's going on in the next lane.

In my estimation, European law takes into better consideration the
relativity of the situation than the USA, which seems to create laws
purely for the sake of conformity, and as a byproduct of such, provide
additional income for law enforcement.

Then again, the US doesn't tax its citizens as much as EU countries.
Ergo, the US laws are designed to fill the monetary gap.

Cheers,

Carl Rogers
"Environment first, transportology second"
********
Worldwide Transportation Library (WWTL):
http://wwtl.info
http://m.wwtl.info [Mobile]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Complete coverage of international roads and railways.
Since 2000, we have offered several photographs, videos and
Virtual 360 captures -- to each viatologist & transportologist.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
********

Carl Rogers wrote:
> On Nov 6, 8:37 pm, "Rocky" > wrote:
>> http://autos.aol.com/article/utah-speed-limit-tests
>
> Hi Rocky,
>
> Neat! As the article suggests, the 85th percentile is a commonly
> accepted metric for determining maximum travel speed. Personally, I
> believe this metric does not take into consideration certain drivers
> who have the discipline to travel at higher speeds and know when to do
> so (e.g., open road, little traffic, and clear conditions).
>
> If your car is in proper care to travel safely at higher speeds and
> the driver understands the environment in which he or she is driving,
> then an arbitrary speed limit is moot and purely political.
>
> A great example of driver discipline and limitless speed would be the
> German autobahn. If a disciplined driver has a new BMW coupe and is
> willing to use the left lane at 160 km/h, then by all means he or she
> can do so. Perhaps go 180 km/h if he or she wishes. But it would be
> foolish for that same driver to attempt high speed travel in a Yugo in
> that same lane, especially if his or her tyres were bald.
>
> At the same time, you probably wouldn't want a testerone-rabid
> teenager to jump into the BMW coupe and drive 160 km/h, due to his
> lack of experience driving at said speed. If danger gets presented on
> the road, the inexperience could lead to a rash behaviour like over-
> swerving or ignoring what's going on in the next lane.
>
> In my estimation, European law takes into better consideration the
> relativity of the situation than the USA, which seems to create laws
> purely for the sake of conformity, and as a byproduct of such, provide
> additional income for law enforcement.
>
> Then again, the US doesn't tax its citizens as much as EU countries.
> Ergo, the US laws are designed to fill the monetary gap.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Rogers
> "Environment first, transportology second"
> ********
> Worldwide Transportation Library (WWTL):
> http://wwtl.info
> http://m.wwtl.info [Mobile]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Complete coverage of international roads and railways.
> Since 2000, we have offered several photographs, videos and
> Virtual 360 captures -- to each viatologist & transportologist.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ********
>
160 kmh is not very fast.
160 mph is a pretty fast ride though.

In article >, elmer > wrote:
....
>160 kmh is not very fast.
>160 mph is a pretty fast ride though.

Um, 160 kph is 100 mph, which is generally considred "fast".

Though, I would imagine that many of us here have travelled that fast,
or faster, in a land-based wheeled vehicle.

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:25:34 -0800, Carl Rogers wrote:

> A great example of driver discipline and limitless speed would be the
> German autobahn. If a disciplined driver has a new BMW coupe and is
> willing to use the left lane at 160 km/h, then by all means he or she
> can do so. Perhaps go 180 km/h if he or she wishes. But it would be
> foolish for that same driver to attempt high speed travel in a Yugo in
> that same lane, especially if his or her tyres were bald.

How about a Trabi with a 351 and a sick lift kit? Or a '64 Impala loaded
to the gunwales with Schnäuzers and Shar Peis playing King Sunny Ade
REALLY LOUD? Or Puls Der Zeit, Soul Rebels in a German Car?



--
'Smoking is Healthier than Fascism'

On Nov 7, 2:25*pm, Carl Rogers > wrote:
> On Nov 6, 8:37*pm, "Rocky" > wrote:
>
> >http://autos.aol.com/article/utah-speed-limit-tests
>
> Hi Rocky,
>
> Neat! *As the article suggests, the 85th percentile is a commonly
> accepted metric for determining maximum travel speed. *Personally, I
> believe this metric does not take into consideration certain drivers
> who have the discipline to travel at higher speeds and know when to do
> so (e.g., open road, little traffic, and clear conditions).
>
> If your car is in proper care to travel safely at higher speeds and
> the driver understands the environment in which he or she is driving,
> then an arbitrary speed limit is moot and purely political.
>
> A great example of driver discipline and limitless speed would be the
> German autobahn. *If a disciplined driver has a new BMW coupe and is
> willing to use the left lane at 160 km/h, then by all means he or she
> can do so. *Perhaps go 180 km/h if he or she wishes. *But it would be
> foolish for that same driver to attempt high speed travel in a Yugo in
> that same lane, especially if his or her tyres were bald.
>
> At the same time, you probably wouldn't want a testerone-rabid
> teenager to jump into the BMW coupe and drive 160 km/h, due to his
> lack of experience driving at said speed. *If danger gets presented on
> the road, the inexperience could lead to a rash behaviour like over-
> swerving or ignoring what's going on in the next lane.
>
> In my estimation, European law takes into better consideration the
> relativity of the situation than the USA, which seems to create laws
> purely for the sake of conformity, and as a byproduct of such, provide
> additional income for law enforcement.
>
> Then again, the US doesn't tax its citizens as much as EU countries.
> Ergo, the US laws are designed to fill the monetary gap.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Rogers

The Texas Transportation Institute -- a non-partisan, non-insurance
funded organization has professed that the 85th percentile is the
optimum speed limit for traffic that results in a balance between
speed and accidents, in that accidents will go down if equilibrium can
be achieved. West Virgina has applied this for years -- 70 MPH on
interstates and 65 MPH on four-lane highways, and accidents have
decreased year-after-year despite traffic count increases -- yet the
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety -- a partisan, insurance funded
organization, counters WVDOH's own statistics.

Kentucky has raised their interstate and parkway speed limits to 70
MPH, and traffic accidents have decreased on those facilities.

Take that in your pipe, John, and smoke it.

Sherman Cahal

Carl Rogers > wrote:

> If your car is in proper care to travel safely at higher speeds and the
> driver understands the environment in which he or she is driving, then an
> arbitrary speed limit is moot and purely political.

Can you say that again, in English this time?

> A great example of driver discipline and limitless speed would be the
> German autobahn.

Well, no, not really as you would know if you had ever driven on an
autobahn.

> If a disciplined driver has a new BMW coupe and is willing to use the left
> lane at 160 km/h, then by all means he or she can do so. Perhaps go 180
> km/h if he or she wishes.

Any driver with a car capable of those speeds can do that on *some*, but
by no means all, sections of autobahn. However the German police are
notably tough on any signs of bad driving and low speed limits exist
around all autobahn entry and exit roads (on the main carriageway). Even
180km/h is not a limit on unrestricted sections of autobahn. The
"voluntary" limit imposed by some European car makers is 250km/h
(155mph) this is the limit set by the limiter on most cars capable of
exceeding 155mph. Porsche notably don't impose this limit nor do some
other specialist companies. It's also legal to have the limit removed
from the ECU.


> But it would be foolish for that same driver to attempt high speed travel
> in a Yugo in that same lane, especially if his or her tyres were bald.

You seem to be unable to differentiate between the capabilities of a
particular vehicle and the legal/social restrictions on speed.

> At the same time, you probably wouldn't want a testerone-rabid teenager to
> jump into the BMW coupe and drive 160 km/h, due to his lack of experience
> driving at said speed. If danger gets presented on the road, the
> inexperience could lead to a rash behaviour like over- swerving or
> ignoring what's going on in the next lane.

There's nothing to stop a teenager with a licence driving such a car. In
some countries there may be a power restriction on the licence until the
driver has obtained appropriate experience. The primary restriction on
teenagers driving high powered vehicles is that in most European
countries third party insurance is mandatory and a teenager will be
facing premiums of several thousand dollars for even a basic car and
will probably find that no insurer will cover them for any type of
performance car. This enforces a basic level of sanity in matching cars
to experience and driving record.

> In my estimation, European law takes into better consideration the
> relativity of the situation than the USA, which seems to create laws
> purely for the sake of conformity, and as a byproduct of such, provide
> additional income for law enforcement.

You don't know squat about Europe. We have more speed cameras, more ways
of extracting money from the motorist and more restrictive legislation
than in the US. Yes, in general the speed limits are higher with a
generally accepted 130km/h on dual-carriageway roads across most of
Europe. Car safety standards are also higher than in the US and most US
vehicles wouldn't pass the Euro NCAP crash tests. IIRC the Chrysler
Voyager used to score an embarassing zero points in the tests until the
MPV was substantially redesigned.


> Then again, the US doesn't tax its citizens as much as EU countries.
> Ergo, the US laws are designed to fill the monetary gap.

More drivel. Income tax in Andorra 0%, Income Tax in the Isle of Man
18%, Liechtenstein 18%, Jersey 20%, USA 25-35%.


Now why did you decide to cross-post this clap-trap to uk.transport?
Were you trying to impress we po' ol' limeys with your grasp of
transport policy and policing in Europe? If so you failed, which is par
for the course with you.

Steve Firth wrote:
> There's nothing to stop a teenager with a licence driving such a car. In
> some countries there may be a power restriction on the licence until the
> driver has obtained appropriate experience. The primary restriction on
> teenagers driving high powered vehicles is that in most European
> countries third party insurance is mandatory and a teenager will be
> facing premiums of several thousand dollars for even a basic car and
> will probably find that no insurer will cover them for any type of
> performance car. This enforces a basic level of sanity in matching cars
> to experience and driving record.

I support the concept of insurance companies regulating driving this way,
and would like to see us enable it in the US by getting rid of all state
"assigned risk" plans.

Per Steve Firth:
> Yes, in general the speed limits are higher with a
>generally accepted 130km/h on dual-carriageway roads across most of
>Europe. Car safety standards are also higher than in the US and most US
>vehicles wouldn't pass the Euro NCAP crash tests.

One more thing - that I haven't heard mentioned yet: In Germany,
at least, everybody on the highway is playing by the same rules.

Try starting a thread in a motor-related newsgroup in the USA
about the correct way to merge into traffic coming off of an
on-ramp. You will get a long thread in which intelligent people
of good will put forth strongly-held but conflicting opinions
about the "right" way.

Same thing with a thread on cruising the hammer lane - although
there seems tb more agreement now than a few years back. Lotta
years back, we even had a (government-sponsored?) "Set The Pace
For Safety" campaign which seemed to actually encourage people to
cruise the left lane.

My sense from what little driving I've done in Germany is that
*everybody* knows *exactly* how to come down an on-ramp and merge
with traffic.... and it's the same way for everybody...

There's more, but you get the idea.... driver education is
neither required nor, as far as I can see, widely done in USA.
--
PeteCresswell

On 2009-11-10, (PeteCresswell) > wrote:

> My sense from what little driving I've done in Germany is that
> *everybody* knows *exactly* how to come down an on-ramp and merge
> with traffic.... and it's the same way for everybody...

The right way. Accelerating on the ramp and timing a gap.

> There's more, but you get the idea.... driver education is
> neither required nor, as far as I can see, widely done in USA.

It's worse. Much of driver's education when it comes to technique in the
USA is mis-education.

Hey stupid. The issue was settled back in 1974 when america adopted
the 55 and IMMEDIATELY highway deaths fell from 55k a year to 46k.

Hell - no actual need for studies anyway. Anyone with half a brain
knows that speed causes more crashes and the crashes are more violent.