Brake inspection not part of standard service!?

"ks" > wrote in message
...
> Do they advertive an inspection with every oil change, if not why would
> you assume so.
>
> Dealers are damed no mater what they do. People want the price of a quick
> lube (who will recomend and new air filter and try to sell you a coulant
> flush and tranny flush every 3000 miles) and the service of a best freind
> private mechinc.
>
> It's your car unless you ask for something to be inspected you need to
> assume it hasn't been.
>
> KS

This is definitely the answer to the question that was asked by the OP.
What he got was an oil change every 3000 miles, and now he's wishing he'd
gotten a brake inspection every 3000 miles. That's not what he got. He
didn't mention what "service" was, and so he forced us to assume. It's not
a very good customer who obfuscates on the internet.

Let's just say he had his tires rotated instead. It's certainly true that
brakes are very visible when your tires are rotated, and they ought to be
looking at them. Once the tires off, it's right there. So if you were
having the tires rotated every 5000 or so, I think you'd have a legitimate
complaint, but that's all you'd have. It still wouldn't be their
responsibility to catch that, unless they advertise it and you asked for it.
Rather, it would have been a nice thing to do.

Perce, I believe you need to look at the Maintenance Schedule in your
car's owner's manual. It should have an interval for "Inspect Brakes"
in it, I believe, which is NOT each 3000 miles. Be that as it may . . .

When you take your vehicle into almost ANY service facility, dealership
or not, and ask for an oil and oil filter change, that's what you get
and you get it in (sometimes) "30 minutes or less, or the next one's
free". Some dealers also manage to get a quicky rinse off in their
automatic car wash, too, in that same general time frame.

In the "old days" of serivce stations, you didn't even get a brake
inspection with each oil change. While the car was up on the lift, it
might be possible to look at the brake rotor surfaces to see if there
any unusual wear showing up, but that's about all--plus, you can usually
only see one side of the rotor anyway. With the wheel off, then you can
see the entire outer rotor surface, but the inner surface is generally
hidden by the splash shield. What you can see of it can still leave
much unseen with respect to wear patterns.

Sometimes, you can see how much brake lining is left on the brake pads,
but not knowing if the pads are "riveted" or "bonded", even that's a hit
or miss situation without pulling the caliper off.

With all due respect, this situation proves that if a dealership
"touches" the vehicle, they are magically supposed to see everything's
condition via "magic vision" or similar. They are supposed to also know
that something going to fail next week, too, although everything looks
and sounds fine NOW. And, when that does not happen, the dealership
gets bad-mouthed for not "knowing" something was as it turned out to be,
later, in advance.

Now, depending upon how much is being paid for the oil and oil filter
change, will depend upon how much time is spent on the vehicle by the
technician--just as YOU would do if it was your job to do (at a fixed
labor rate). In other words, as already mentioned, it's about getting
the vehicles' processed and doing a quality job in a certain amount of
time. There will be time to check the air filter element and see if
there might be something else under the hood that might need attention
(while they are draining the oil oil and putting the new oil in), but
not much else. As modern vehicles now take less general maintenance
prior to 100K miles, there is less to check for.

One foreign brand dealership in DFW is advertising an oil change and
tire rotation in "an hour". If that includes resetting the tire
pressure monitor, that would be about right. Whether they might check
for nails in the tires might be open for discussion.

Also, a "brake inspection" would be a separate and different labor
operation than "oil and oil filter change". Therefore, more cost
involved.

Now, Perce, as you perceive you have been taking good care of your
vehicle with the 3000 mile oil changes, have you ALSO been following the
Chrysler Recommended Maintenance Schedule at the same time? Key point!

As for what's better, a dealership or a private garage or chain service
store . . . that's debateable. At least at the dealership, there should
be some guidance of what the particular vehicle's supposed to be
"doing" (just as a prior service station mechanic, who was used to
seeing YOUR car every so often and knew pretty much how YOU drove the
car, might know when something needed fixing), but when you take a
vehicle into a chain store (of any kind), you might see the same techs
in the shop from time to time and you might not--and this can vary from
store to store, too. And . . . an important thing to consider, they
might put some incorrect fluid in the vehicle (highly important with
respect to ATF with many newer vehicles, especially non-GM brands!) or
put the right fluid in the wrong place.

These places might be more convenient and you might not have had any
problems with them, but it can all depend upon many factors. And, they
might have "better" hours than the dealerships, too, which can be a
plus. Generally, as long as you're in their area of expertise, things
can be ok and you can build a relationship with the people there, too.

Regardless of where you take your vehicle for service, it always helps
to build a good working relationship with those there--whether it's a
dealership or somewhere else. The prices at a dealership can be higher
than at one of the other places, which can be a factor, too, but the old
"You get what you pay for" can become very operative if the
non-dealership entity does something wrong in what they did.

As for the brake job, you can request the dealership not use their OEM
parts, or at least ask them to get you a quote with OEM and using a
quality part from a local auto supply. Sometimes, the OEM is more
expensive but NOT always.

Also, Perce, you did not mention what the labor charges were, just the
total price. I suspect that when labor and shop supplies are deducted
from the amount you mentioned, the parts prices might NOT be that
different from the aftermarket.

Also, I need to mention that some brake repair chain stores will
advertise a really inexpensive price for their brake service. But you
also need to listen to their "fast taking disclaimer" at the end of the
radio advertisement. A friend used to work at an auto supply near one
of those places. He said the brake shop was always calling over and
ordering parts and not asking about the prices as the customer was going
to pay them anyway (he claimed) so it was more important to get the car
repaired than what the customer was going to pay. So, read the fine
print on those deals!

In the case of using non-OEM brake rotors, make sure that the ones you
get have the SWIRL FINISH pattern on them. This "non-directional"
finish is there to keep the metallic pads from trying to "phonograph
needle" follow the cutter's grooves and cause chattering. If the rotors
have just a satin finish, you'll need to carefully "bed" the pads in
with several medium-decel stops (which will probably cause smells and
early fade until the satin finish is more polished by the brake pads).
I know, that's what happened to me one time when I bought non-OEM
rotors. Later, I bought some more (really good price, too!) that had
the swirl finish on them. NONE of the prior "break-in" problems.

As thin as the current production rotors generally are, not cutting them
is a better long-term option.

And, of course, make sure the brake pads are at least OEM spec. The
"cheap pads" are just that, but something like Carbon Metallic are
generally a little more money, but worth it.

Just some things to consider . . .


C-BODY

In article >,
"ks" > wrote:

> It's your car unless you ask for something to be inspected you need to
> assume it hasn't been.

Over the last few years I've had my oil changed at both Speedy and the
Chrysler dealer a few times each. Both say they do an overall inspection.

My EGR hose fell apart early this year. I'm very surprised no one
noticed that, particularly since the car is 10+ yrs old.
The moral of the story is you have to inspect things yourself,
particularly on an older car.

On 07/21/07 09:19 am ks wrote:

> Do they advertive an inspection with every oil change, if not why would you
> assume so.

But I wasn't taking it in every 3000 miles for "an oil change." I was
taking it in every 3000 miles for "the standard 3000 mile service,"
which I assumed -- wrongly, as it turns out -- included looking the car
over to see what other preventive or remedial maintenance was required.

> Dealers are damed no mater what they do. People want the price of a quick
> lube (who will recomend and new air filter and try to sell you a coulant
> flush and tranny flush every 3000 miles) and the service of a best freind
> private mechinc.
>
> It's your car unless you ask for something to be inspected you need to
> assume it hasn't been.

When they had it the other day, they pointed out that the air filter
needed to be replaced. And, on a previous occasion, they pointed out
that the transmission fluid cooler was leaking.

And if it's not possible to check the brakes without taking the wheels
off, how come they found a crapped-out rotor and pads in the course of
doing "just an oil-and-filter change"? How come they didn't find nearly
crapped-out rotor and pads in the course of "just an oil-and-filter
change" 3000 miles before?

Perce

In article >,
"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote:

> And if it's not possible to check the brakes without taking the wheels
> off, how come they found a crapped-out rotor and pads in the course of
> doing "just an oil-and-filter change"? How come they didn't find nearly
> crapped-out rotor and pads in the course of "just an oil-and-filter
> change" 3000 miles before?

You should be asking the dealership.

"Percival P. Cassidy" > wrote in message
...
> But I wasn't taking it in every 3000 miles for "an oil change." I was
> taking it in every 3000 miles for "the standard 3000 mile service,"
> which I assumed -- wrongly, as it turns out -- included looking the car
> over to see what other preventive or remedial maintenance was required.

This is the rub. Some dealers advertise an 'oil change' and try to be
competitive with the local speedy shop. (My local guy usually lubes all
chassis fittings, tops off all fluids for free, and I've caught him actually
looking in the wheels to check pad thickness. Hey, it's good business,
and he is possibly finding more work to do.) Dealers that want you in
and out for cheap are one thing. Other dealers stand firm that they are
'dealer service' and are worth more than the local garage because they
are 'factory' and are not only more experienced and have more training
with your make of car, but also clearly imply they are doing more for
your increased dollar amout than the local mechanic.

So how upset you are really depends on what kind of service the
dealer presented as what he was providing.

Even still, it IS possible that the dealer DID check, and your brakes
WERE acceptable at the last check.

> And if it's not possible to check the brakes without taking the wheels
> off, how come they found a crapped-out rotor and pads in the course of
> doing "just an oil-and-filter change"? How come they didn't find nearly
> crapped-out rotor and pads in the course of "just an oil-and-filter
> change" 3000 miles before?
>

Actually, I side with you, but to be fair, if the brakes weren't making any
noise 3000 miles ago, and they weren't checking, then they might not have
reason to look at them. Now, they may be making noise, so they looked.
Especially if you are now to the point the rotors are gouged.

> wrote in message
...
> Perce, I believe you need to look at the Maintenance Schedule in your
> car's owner's manual. It should have an interval for "Inspect Brakes"
> in it, I believe, which is NOT each 3000 miles. Be that as it may . . .
snip
>
> With all due respect, this situation proves that if a dealership
> "touches" the vehicle, they are magically supposed to see everything's
> condition via "magic vision" or similar. They are supposed to also know
> that something going to fail next week, too, although everything looks
> and sounds fine NOW. And, when that does not happen, the dealership
> gets bad-mouthed for not "knowing" something was as it turned out to be,
> later, in advance.
>

Well put. The OP can't take responsibility for something as simple as his
own brakes, but expects somebody else to see intio the future.

So the next fact that needs to be brought out is that "standard service" is
an oil change. If somebody thinks there's something else included, let the
burden of proof lie on them.

Thanks for the kind words, Joe.

A few more "reality" issues --

You can look at the disc brake rotor outer wear surface for unusual wear
patterns, but all you can usually see of the INNER surface is probably
not much (due to splash shields and such).

You can look at the caliper with it still attached to the car, to look
for remaining brake pad amounts, BUT unless you know if it's a riveted
lining pad or a bonded lining pad, you still don't know how much is
left. Both can look to have the same lining left on them, but you have
to also realize that a riveted pad's last 25% or so of lining is not
useable as the rivets which retain the lining to the pad stucture go
through that last 25% of lining. THEREFORE, unless you remove the
caliper from its mounting bracket, it's still pure speculation how much
useable lining is left.

So, at this point, we've looked through the slots in the wheels and the
possible open areas of the splash shield to see the wear surfaces of the
rotor. This would be a simple "look see" situation, for which no real
labor would be charged.

IF you also request a tire rotation, then that would result in the
wheels being removed and reinstalled in a different mounting location.
At this time, the calipers could be looked at--probably for no extra
charge as the rotation labor would pay for getting the wheels off in the
first place. Still, a "goodwill" inspection situation.

BUT if you request to have the calipers pulled off and the linings
inspected, then that's an extra labor operation AND one that would be
charged for--no matter what. If you decide to get the pads replaced at
that time, then the "remove" labor would be considered part of the total
brake pad replacement.

Just some additional clarifications.

Plus if you back out the sales tax, environmental fees, and LABOR from
the amount quoted for the new rotor and brake job, parts prices might be
more reasonable than they appear.

Unless something's written on the repair order, always presume it has
not been done.

C-BODY

why is your nic c -body are you into the c bodys looking for one??

wrote:

> Thanks for the kind words, Joe.
>
> A few more "reality" issues --
>
> You can look at the disc brake rotor outer wear surface for unusual wear
> patterns, but all you can usually see of the INNER surface is probably
> not much (due to splash shields and such).
>
> You can look at the caliper with it still attached to the car, to look
> for remaining brake pad amounts, BUT unless you know if it's a riveted
> lining pad or a bonded lining pad, you still don't know how much is
> left. Both can look to have the same lining left on them, but you have
> to also realize that a riveted pad's last 25% or so of lining is not
> useable as the rivets which retain the lining to the pad stucture go
> through that last 25% of lining. THEREFORE, unless you remove the
> caliper from its mounting bracket, it's still pure speculation how much
> useable lining is left.
>
> So, at this point, we've looked through the slots in the wheels and the
> possible open areas of the splash shield to see the wear surfaces of the
> rotor. This would be a simple "look see" situation, for which no real
> labor would be charged.
>
> IF you also request a tire rotation, then that would result in the
> wheels being removed and reinstalled in a different mounting location.
> At this time, the calipers could be looked at--probably for no extra
> charge as the rotation labor would pay for getting the wheels off in the
> first place. Still, a "goodwill" inspection situation.
>
> BUT if you request to have the calipers pulled off and the linings
> inspected, then that's an extra labor operation AND one that would be
> charged for--no matter what. If you decide to get the pads replaced at
> that time, then the "remove" labor would be considered part of the total
> brake pad replacement.
>
> Just some additional clarifications.
>
> Plus if you back out the sales tax, environmental fees, and LABOR from
> the amount quoted for the new rotor and brake job, parts prices might be
> more reasonable than they appear.
>
> Unless something's written on the repair order, always presume it has
> not been done.
>
> C-BODY