Beretta rear toe

Short version: Would my wife's 1990 Beretta be driveable with 11/32" of
rear toe?

Long version:

Back in December I changed outer tierods and balljoints, had Crappy Tire
do an alignment. Also got two new front tires at that time. A couple
weeks ago one axle (original from 1990) started clicking, so I decided
to throw a rebuilt axle and two new struts on it. This morning I took
it back to Crappy Tire for alignment #2.

I just got off the phone with the tech who told me the car has 11/32 of
rear toe on one side. Back in December, the car had +1/16" on the rear
left and -1/16" on the right rear. He needs to shim the backing plate
to line it up, and that would be another $120 or so. I told him I
thought that was a load of hooey - because of the fact the car was
aligned 4 months ago by the same machine at the same shop and the car
was tracking JUST FINE last week before I did the struts and axle.

I know it's a 16 year old car, but something smells fishy to me. I
can't believe the rear end/axle/body has twisted THAT much in 4 months
when it survived 15 1/2 years and never changed. Heck, the previous
alignment was the first one done in 7 years or so since the last time I
did the balljoints.

They're going to align the front and leave it - but I'm feeling like I'm
being setup for a ripoff or something. I've been servicing that car
since 1997 when I met my wife and have replaced pretty much everything
on it so it's not like I'm not unfamiliar with the car. Grr..

Hell, I'm bringing my homemade toe checking boards to the store when I
go to pick it up - I may not be any good at setting toe, but if there's
that much toe I should be able to SEE it... and like I said, the car was
driving FINE - I brought it in for an alignment because of the new
struts. If it wasn't aligned 4 months ago I'd believe that the rear
needs shims, but at this point I'm perplexed and ****ed.

Thoughts? (other than to use it as an excuse to get rid of it and get a
real RWD car?)

In case anyone cares, here's what the final specs were on the old alignment:
Front:
L Caster: +1.8 deg (min 0.4 max 1.9)
R Caster: +1.6
L Camber: +.1 deg (min 0 max is 1.3)
R Camber: +.1
L Toe: -1/32" (min -1/32" max 1/32")
R Toe: +1/32"
Total Toe: 0 (min -3/32" max 3/32")
Rear:
L Camber: -.5 deg (min -.9 max .4)
R Camber: -.7 deg (min -.9 max .4)
L Toe: 1/16" (min 0 max 1/8)
R Toe: -1/16" (min 0 max 1/8)
Total: 1/32 (min 1/32 max 9/32)
(I just noticed that the rear toe was already 1/16" in past spec... and
now I'm annoyed they didn't say anything last time.)

Sigh. Maybe I can buy an alignment machine on ebay.

On a side note -> if you ever need to change the TH125 valve body gasket
after changing the TCC solenoid, it's easier with the axle out. I
couldn't even get the cover all the way off before so I had to reuse the
old gasket and it's been seeping ever since. It's now fixed.

Ray

Short answer: Yes.

Hit any curbs in the snow this winter? I would also be wondering about
bushings.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

ray wrote:
>
> Short version: Would my wife's 1990 Beretta be driveable with 11/32" of
> rear toe?
>
> Long version:
>
> Back in December I changed outer tierods and balljoints, had Crappy Tire
> do an alignment. Also got two new front tires at that time. A couple
> weeks ago one axle (original from 1990) started clicking, so I decided
> to throw a rebuilt axle and two new struts on it. This morning I took
> it back to Crappy Tire for alignment #2.
>
> I just got off the phone with the tech who told me the car has 11/32 of
> rear toe on one side. Back in December, the car had +1/16" on the rear
> left and -1/16" on the right rear. He needs to shim the backing plate
> to line it up, and that would be another $120 or so. I told him I
> thought that was a load of hooey - because of the fact the car was
> aligned 4 months ago by the same machine at the same shop and the car
> was tracking JUST FINE last week before I did the struts and axle.
>
> I know it's a 16 year old car, but something smells fishy to me. I
> can't believe the rear end/axle/body has twisted THAT much in 4 months
> when it survived 15 1/2 years and never changed. Heck, the previous
> alignment was the first one done in 7 years or so since the last time I
> did the balljoints.
>
> They're going to align the front and leave it - but I'm feeling like I'm
> being setup for a ripoff or something. I've been servicing that car
> since 1997 when I met my wife and have replaced pretty much everything
> on it so it's not like I'm not unfamiliar with the car. Grr..
>
> Hell, I'm bringing my homemade toe checking boards to the store when I
> go to pick it up - I may not be any good at setting toe, but if there's
> that much toe I should be able to SEE it... and like I said, the car was
> driving FINE - I brought it in for an alignment because of the new
> struts. If it wasn't aligned 4 months ago I'd believe that the rear
> needs shims, but at this point I'm perplexed and ****ed.
>
> Thoughts? (other than to use it as an excuse to get rid of it and get a
> real RWD car?)
>
> In case anyone cares, here's what the final specs were on the old alignment:
> Front:
> L Caster: +1.8 deg (min 0.4 max 1.9)
> R Caster: +1.6
> L Camber: +.1 deg (min 0 max is 1.3)
> R Camber: +.1
> L Toe: -1/32" (min -1/32" max 1/32")
> R Toe: +1/32"
> Total Toe: 0 (min -3/32" max 3/32")
> Rear:
> L Camber: -.5 deg (min -.9 max .4)
> R Camber: -.7 deg (min -.9 max .4)
> L Toe: 1/16" (min 0 max 1/8)
> R Toe: -1/16" (min 0 max 1/8)
> Total: 1/32 (min 1/32 max 9/32)
> (I just noticed that the rear toe was already 1/16" in past spec... and
> now I'm annoyed they didn't say anything last time.)
>
> Sigh. Maybe I can buy an alignment machine on ebay.
>
> On a side note -> if you ever need to change the TH125 valve body gasket
> after changing the TCC solenoid, it's easier with the axle out. I
> couldn't even get the cover all the way off before so I had to reuse the
> old gasket and it's been seeping ever since. It's now fixed.
>
> Ray

ray wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> > Short answer: Yes.
> >
> > Hit any curbs in the snow this winter? I would also be wondering about
> > bushings.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Nope. The closest the car came to an accident was the car was tapped in
> a parking lot at about 2 mph. We'd never even have noticed except the
> other driver left their car touching ours.
>
> Wouldn't I have a nasty pull with that much rear toe or some kind of
> weird wandering in the steering? the car was aligned in December and
> was tracking straight last Saturday. I did the struts on Sunday. It's
> still tracking straight... even with the approx 3 degrees of positive
> camber on one side from the struts...
>
> Ray

They usually crab walk a bit, but will track straight. The steering
wheel will be off slightly to make up for it. You should notice more
wear on one tire though. Usually a lot more wear....

Mike

"ray" > wrote in message
news:41R_f.3344$P01.3184@pd7tw3no...
> Short version: Would my wife's 1990 Beretta be driveable with 11/32" of
> rear toe?

Stepdaughter's Buick Regal had a problem like this, and she never noticed
anything about the drive or handling.

She DID notice when the tires wore out however.

The rear axle was bent and the rear wheels were severely out of alignment.
She never knew when or how the axle got bent.

I got one.
The starting left rear toe was indicated as -11/32" and the final total
toe was -3/8".
After a couple rounds with the tech & the service manager they admitted
that I wasn't the first alignment complaint and they were recalibrating
the equipment.

I took the car home, and then we took it back again because the steering
wheel isn't straight and it's pulling to the right. And it wasn't
before I did the struts. And I now don't trust ANY of their numbers
from this alignment.

I'll have the final answer tomorrow.

I'm not saying anything but this:
I had the car aligned BY THEM in December of 2005 after new balljoints
and tierods. The rear was fine then. No accidents and 4 months later,
the car was tracking straight, but needed an axle and struts. I did
those and had them redo the alignment. According to them my rear end is
fubared it's so far off... but there's nothing bent, broken or worn. No
one at crappy tire can explain how the a non adjustable rear end went to
hell in 4 months with no wear and no accidents. And then they mention
that "oh yeah, the alignment machine might be off." Regardless of how
this turns out, this is the last time they touch my car. A local frame
shop sponsors a friend's street stock - I'll give him my business - even
if it's an extra 20 miles each way.

Ray

Shep wrote:
> So what are you saying they are lying or it couldn't happen? You cannot
> drive this with so much toe in on one wheel, the tire will wear prematurely
> and handling will be affected. Get a printout from them now and see what it
> says.
> "ray" > wrote in message
> news:lCS_f.3500$7a.35@pd7tw1no...
>
>>Mike Romain wrote:
>>
>>>Short answer: Yes.
>>>
>>>Hit any curbs in the snow this winter? I would also be wondering about
>>>bushings.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>Nope. The closest the car came to an accident was the car was tapped in a
>>parking lot at about 2 mph. We'd never even have noticed except the other
>>driver left their car touching ours.
>>
>>Wouldn't I have a nasty pull with that much rear toe or some kind of weird
>>wandering in the steering? the car was aligned in December and was
>>tracking straight last Saturday. I did the struts on Sunday. It's still
>>tracking straight... even with the approx 3 degrees of positive camber on
>>one side from the struts...
>>
>>Ray
>
>
>
>
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wrote:
> "ray" > wrote in message
> news:41R_f.3344$P01.3184@pd7tw3no...
>
>>Short version: Would my wife's 1990 Beretta be driveable with 11/32" of
>>rear toe?
>
>
> Stepdaughter's Buick Regal had a problem like this, and she never noticed
> anything about the drive or handling.
>
> She DID notice when the tires wore out however.
>
> The rear axle was bent and the rear wheels were severely out of alignment.
> She never knew when or how the axle got bent.
>
>
>

Rear tires had tread separation in December of 05. they were originally
installed in 99ish and made 80,000km. Almost down to the wear bars.
The old fronts are on the back and if the alignment has been off it
should have scrubbed those tires bald by now.... and they're not.

And a visual inspection by me and the alignment tech shows nothing
obviously bent or broken. If you see my other post, it looks like a
problem with the alignment machine. they're going to re-check it
tomorrow. And they're going to keep adjusting it until the steering
wheel is straight.

Ray