Proactive Maintenance of a 98 Camry

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:25:41 -0500, "Ray O"
> wrote:

>This is true, however, of the 100 or so dealerships I've personally dealt
>with, I'd say 70% were technically good, another 25% were excellent, and the
>remaining 5% were poor. The proportions of good, excellent, and poor
>technicians who worked at the dealerships is probably about the same. Your
>chances of getting good service on your Toyota at a Toyota dealer are at
>least as good and probably better than your chances of getting that same
>level of technical competence at an independent shop.

Statistically this is invalid. First, it is unlikely that so many are
"excellent" while so few are "poor". More likely is that you are
rating them unfairly, and too generously.

Second, there is no factual basis to assume that the idiots hired by a
dealer are more intelligent than the idiots hired by an independent
shop. In reality, the reverse is true. The reason to go to the
dealer is not because they somehow know how to hire better mechanics,
but because they have more reason to stand by their repairs when they
fail.

Personally when I need service, I generally use a dealer, if and only
if I can't do it myself, or the cost is so low as to not be worth my
time. I double check their work as much as I would if I took it to an
independent shop. And in the hundreds of places that have worked on
my vehicles, almost every problem has been at a dealer. That includes
adjusting for frequency.

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:26:30 -0500, DTJ > wrote:
>According to every Honda mechanic I have asked, and that is more than
>a couple, a timing belt failure does not lead to any significant
>damage. Every time they recommend a change, I ask them, and they look
>down, admit they are just trying to make more money, and walk away
>chastened for being caught at it.

I imagine your just a troll having fun at others expense here but just
for the record the Gates book shows virtually every Honda engine from
every yeat to be an interference engine. This means when the belt
breaks you can bend valves or knock holes in the tops of the pistons.

If any sensible folks would like to check it our for themselves go to
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...cation_id=3487 and
select the Timing Belt Replacement Gudie link on that page. It is a
big Adobe doc and takes a minute to download

Steve B.

In article >,
DTJ > wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:27:36 -0400, "S.S." > wrote:
>>
>>I have heard of many instances of the belt failing past the interval, but
>>very few within the interval.
>
>I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
>legend you hear on the Internet.

Honda timing belts don't fail that often because, absent regular maintenance,
the water pump fails first, then the timing belt gets replaced along
with it.

In article >, says...

>How should I approach the maintenance of this car? What should be
>done and when?

Check the maintenance schedule that should be in the glove box. That is
a good starting point. Had you done that with your previous car, it probably
would not have caused you so many headaches.

>Secondly, where should such work be done? I am so happy to be able tp
>plan that, instead of being limited by who is near and who is open
>during a holiday weekend!

I would ask friends if they have an mechanics they can recommend.

>Are big national chains like Sears, Pep Boys, WalMart etc any good?
>CarX, Midas, Firestone? (Recommendations for places local to Chicago
>are also welcome.)

Some are, some aren't.

>I stopped at a local garage in an area where I had to kill time today.
>He suggested (1) changing belts (incl timing) and (2) getting a
>tune-up, even if nothing seems wrong. Is that good advice?

Ask the prior owner if he changed any of those items.

>He was unsure about water pump: it would be $80 if done with timing
>belt but a lot more if it had to be done on its own, but nothing is
>wrong and it could possibly last.

If the pump is driven off of the timing belt, change it.
-------------
Alex

In article >,
says...

>
>Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
>have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
>similar.

My uncle has a toyota and he get flyers from the local dealer, who is not
cheap, to change a timing belt for under $500.

>However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
>which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
>mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
>timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil.

Timing belts do break.

>Besides, the quote
>to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.

Getting your car towed home, or to the shop, costs money. If you have an
interference engine, the snapped belt could end up costing _ALOT_ more
money than changing the belt. IIRC, most Hondas are interference engines.
-------------
Alex

In article >, says...
>
>
>On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:26:30 -0500, DTJ > wrote:
>>According to every Honda mechanic I have asked, and that is more than
>>a couple, a timing belt failure does not lead to any significant
>>damage. Every time they recommend a change, I ask them, and they look
>>down, admit they are just trying to make more money, and walk away
>>chastened for being caught at it.
>
>I imagine your just a troll having fun at others expense here but just
>for the record the Gates book shows virtually every Honda engine from
>every yeat to be an interference engine. This means when the belt
>breaks you can bend valves or knock holes in the tops of the pistons.

I think it is foolhardy to believe a timing belt will never snap. I do know
from experience that you can get lucky and not do damage to the valves and
pistons when a belt snaps on an interference engine. This happened on my
fathers car. The old belt snapped. We towed it home and put in a new belt and
the car started right up, no problem. I have also seen other engines that were
not so lucky and almost all the valves were bent, the pistons just had some
scratches in them and did not need to be changed.
-----------------
Alex

"DTJ" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:25:41 -0500, "Ray O"
> > wrote:
>
>>This is true, however, of the 100 or so dealerships I've personally dealt
>>with, I'd say 70% were technically good, another 25% were excellent, and
>>the
>>remaining 5% were poor. The proportions of good, excellent, and poor
>>technicians who worked at the dealerships is probably about the same.
>>Your
>>chances of getting good service on your Toyota at a Toyota dealer are at
>>least as good and probably better than your chances of getting that same
>>level of technical competence at an independent shop.
>
> Statistically this is invalid. First, it is unlikely that so many are
> "excellent" while so few are "poor". More likely is that you are
> rating them unfairly, and too generously.
>

It would be invalid statistically if both the dealer and the independent
hired everyone who applied for a job without any screening and if they paid
the same. This is not the case. Dealers generally hire either experienced
technicians or someone with a formal education in automotive technology,
generaly through the Toyota Technical Education Network partnership with
selected trade schools and community colleges. Remember that the biggest
single customers most dealers have is the manufcturers through warranty
repairs and manufacturers do not pay warranty claims for repairs that do not
work. Problems with customers cars must be diagnosed with an explanation of
the cause of the failure written. If a technician replaces a $1000 ECU and
the problem still exists, the dealer will not get reimbursed for the repair.

Indepenent shops have the luxury of telling the customer to "take it to the
dealer" if they cannot diagnose a problem. Dealers do not have that luxury
and so they invest a lot of time and money sending their techicians to
factory classes.


> Second, there is no factual basis to assume that the idiots hired by a
> dealer are more intelligent than the idiots hired by an independent
> shop. In reality, the reverse is true. The reason to go to the
> dealer is not because they somehow know how to hire better mechanics,
> but because they have more reason to stand by their repairs when they
> fail.
>

Actually most dealer service managers do know how to hire better
technicians. Dealer service managers also attend factory sponsored service
management classes and Toyota's (and other manufacturers as well)
apprenticeship program provides techs with formal training beyond what
someone would learn in high school shop (which is basically nothing).

> Personally when I need service, I generally use a dealer, if and only
> if I can't do it myself, or the cost is so low as to not be worth my
> time. I double check their work as much as I would if I took it to an
> independent shop. And in the hundreds of places that have worked on
> my vehicles, almost every problem has been at a dealer. That includes
> adjusting for frequency.

If you do your own work on your cars and you still have taken them to
hundreds of places, your cars must need a lot that you cannot do, you have a
lot of cars, your cars have a lot or problems, you move around a lot, or you
have not built a rapport with someone.

Your experience with problems with service at a dealership do not fit the
manufacturer's data. If you go to an independent for oil changes, tune-up,
brakes, etc. and go to a dealership for an intermittent drivability problem
that the independent won't touch, then of course the dealership will have a
lower batting average. When you choose a dealership service department,
choose one that has received the manufacturer's Service Excellence Award
multiple times - your chances of getting good work done are a lot higher.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"DTJ" > wrote in message
...

>
> I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
> legend you hear on the Internet.

I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living,
and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a
timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they
are going to need more work than just a belt,
but people like to try the cheap before spending
big time cash.

I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the
crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out
why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then)

Bernard

of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it
still could pass for your urban myth, based on that

On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 20:35:28 -0700, "Bernard Farquart"
> wrote:

>"DTJ" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
>> legend you hear on the Internet.
>
>I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living,
>and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a
>timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they
>are going to need more work than just a belt,
>but people like to try the cheap before spending
>big time cash.
>
>I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the
>crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out
>why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then)
>
>Bernard
>
>of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it
>still could pass for your urban myth, based on that

It could. But I have faith in your honesty.

Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit
that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger
sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt
failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have
higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to
hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda
to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven
harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH,
commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100.

Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having
replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter
than normal. So you have peaked my interest.

"DTJ" > wrote in message
news
> It could. But I have faith in your honesty.
>
> Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit
> that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger
> sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt
> failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have
> higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to
> hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda
> to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven
> harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH,
> commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100.
>
> Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having
> replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter
> than normal. So you have peaked my interest.

I also had a tensioner falure in my 928, this caused one of
the camshaft gears to slip 30 degrees, this is supposed to
cause massive engine damage at more than 5 degrees, but
since I had to move the car, I put a new tensioner on and
replaced the belt, and viola! it fired right up, so some interference
engines can escape damage, if your "car-ma" is good enough. I really
don't have an explination for my luck on that one.


A thousand bucks seems silly for that service, but I suppose
it is possible, have you done much shopping around? I personally
have little faith in the dealership's service department, I find that an
independant shop that has been around for a long time may be a
better bet, but you can get burned anywhere.(it seems)

If you are in the Seattle area, I can recommend some excellent
shops.

If it were me, I would swap the belt, if you plan on keeping the car for
a long time.

Bernard