Reports on Use of Ethanol in C5's

Anyone used Ethanol in a C5?

We have 10% blend here.
"aRKay" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone used Ethanol in a C5?

In article > ,
"Jeff" > wrote:

> We have 10% blend here.

What kind of milage did you get on gas vs the 10% blend and could you
tell the difference?

We still have the good stuff here and nobody sells blended

"aRKay" > wrote in message
...
> In article > ,
> "Jeff" > wrote:
>
>> We have 10% blend here.
>
> What kind of milage did you get on gas vs the 10% blend and could
> you
> tell the difference?
>
> We still have the good stuff here and nobody sells blended

Never satisfied with my limited knowledge I did a little search,
changed some of my thinking and reinforced allot more.

http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_3b.html

Seldom do I see much benefit in the urban legends and myths that
circulate the internet.

Dad
05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51
72 Shark Black/Black/4spd

Dad wrote:
> Never satisfied with my limited knowledge I did a little search,
> changed some of my thinking and reinforced allot more.
>
> http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_3b.html


What thinking changed, and what was reinforced? I would love to see USA
become less dependant on muslim totalitarian countries for fuel. I am
excited about ethanol and about alternate power sources. Check out this
site: http://www.wind-power.com





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Salvatore Giomarra" > wrote in message
...
> Dad wrote:
>> Never satisfied with my limited knowledge I did a little search,
>> changed some of my thinking and reinforced allot more.
>>
>> http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_3b.html
>
>
> What thinking changed, and what was reinforced? I would love to
> see USA become less dependant on muslim totalitarian countries for
> fuel. I am excited about ethanol and about alternate power
> sources. Check out this site: http://www.wind-power.com
>
That ethanol is actually an octane boost of 3 points and the rest is
what I already believed. Certainly not the 30% mileage drop of some
thinking nor the filter problems of the 70s. I did have to rebuild the
carburetor in my '65 Mustang to get it to run well.

a.. A 10% ethanol-blended fuel is warranted for use by ALL auto
manufacturers marketing vehicles in the U.S.

b.. Many auto manufacturers, including General Motors and Chrysler,
recommend the use of oxygenated fuels, such as ethanol, in their
vehicles.

c.. Ethanol guards against gas line freeze by absorbing moisture
that may get in the tank during cold weather.

d.. Ethanol is a proven octane enhancer and replacement for lead and
other toxic compounds in gasoline.

e.. The blending of 10% ethanol boosts the octane rating of gasoline
by an average of three points.

f.. Nationally, since 1978, ethanol has provided motorists with more
than 2 trillion road miles of satisfactory performance.

g.. Ethanol-blended fuels are approved for use in small engines
too -- including outboard motors, snowmobiles, lawn mowers,
motorcycles, and chain saws. All small-engine manufacturers that have
tested a 10% ethanol blend have approved its use.
--
Dad
05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51
72 Shark Black/Black/4spd

On or about Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:42:43 GMT, aRKay >
wrote or did cause to be written:
>Anyone used Ethanol in a C5?

It is hard to find anything other than 10% ethanol in the Midwest due
to "corporate welfare" providing large tax subsidies. For example, in
Illinois adding 10% ethanol allows the companies to deduct about 55
cents/gallon in taxes. So it is rare to find gas that doesn't have 10%
ethanol.

Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline so expect a decrease
in mileage. It will also do an excellent job of cleaning your fuel
system. If you haven't been using it regularly expect to need to
replace your fuel filter within a hundred miles after your first tank.

But if you use it in the winter you will never have a fuel line freeze
up. And it will remove every drop of condensation in your tank. I
always make sure the tank is full of ethanol when storing for the
winter.

Personally I would gladly pay a 10% premium (30 cents/gallon extra)
NOT to have ethanol because my mileage suffers almost that much with
it. When I'm traveling and can get a tank of "real" gas, it seems to
make a noticeable difference in performance also. On the other hand, I
haven't had a fuel line problem in many years because it does keep the
system clean.

It won't hurt the car if you use it regularly. You'll just get lower
mileage and less performance. Just make sure you have a spare fuel
filter and the tools to change one on the side of the road when you
first start using it.

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> On or about Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:42:43 GMT, aRKay
> >
> wrote or did cause to be written:
>>Anyone used Ethanol in a C5?
>
> It is hard to find anything other than 10% ethanol in the Midwest
> due
> to "corporate welfare" providing large tax subsidies. For example,
> in
> Illinois adding 10% ethanol allows the companies to deduct about 55
> cents/gallon in taxes. So it is rare to find gas that doesn't have
> 10%
> ethanol.

I'd sure like to read more about that, do you have a site that would
give some more facts about the tax breaks? This is just a guess but
there may be that much tacked onto a gallon for kick back and dictator
bribes.
>
> Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline so expect a
> decrease
> in mileage. It will also do an excellent job of cleaning your fuel
> system. If you haven't been using it regularly expect to need to
> replace your fuel filter within a hundred miles after your first
> tank.

Didn't see that happen on my '78 or my '72 when I started using
gasoline with ethanol. I'll sure be on guard when I fire up the '50
this next week.

> But if you use it in the winter you will never have a fuel line
> freeze
> up. And it will remove every drop of condensation in your tank. I
> always make sure the tank is full of ethanol when storing for the
> winter.

Quick question, how do you get condensation in a closed loop fuel
system? Isn't the void air still drawn in through a moisture trap they
started using in the late '70s?

> Personally I would gladly pay a 10% premium (30 cents/gallon extra)
> NOT to have ethanol because my mileage suffers almost that much with
> it. When I'm traveling and can get a tank of "real" gas, it seems to
> make a noticeable difference in performance also. On the other hand,
> I
> haven't had a fuel line problem in many years because it does keep
> the
> system clean.

Both the C5 and my C6 average 28/32 MPG and how I drive it makes more
difference than the fuel with ethanol. Yet you say they should drop to
20/26 MPG? The only time I've ever seen that was at the track,
although it ran about there before it was broke in.

> It won't hurt the car if you use it regularly. You'll just get lower
> mileage and less performance. Just make sure you have a spare fuel
> filter and the tools to change one on the side of the road when you
> first start using it.

Oops there Kemosahbee, the fuel filter on the late C5s and the C6 and
a number of GM cars are on the fuel pump and that's inside the gas
tank. Not really a wrench job as they are stab-loc fittings prior to
that and I'll not drop a fuel tank beside the road. You could wrench
one on the early C5s but you need to drop the left exhaust pipe also.

Personally I look forward to the day to arrive that the technology is
in place to allow us to run 100% ethanol. I'd much rather deal with
our farmers than I do the mid-east.

--
Dad
05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51
72 Shark Black/Black/4spd
No problems with ethanol here in the midwest.

On or about Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:11:17 -0400, "Dad"
> wrote or did cause to be written:

<snip>
>I'd sure like to read more about that, do you have a site that would
>give some more facts about the tax breaks?

Google is your friend. http://zfacts.com/p/35.html is just one
admittedly biased source but I post it because it has lots of other
inconvenient facts. To Google the tax breaks yourself, you might want
to include ADM (Archer Daniels Midland) the largest producer of
ethanol in your search criteria. Both the states and the feds give
large breaks to producers of ethanol (ADM).

>> Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline so expect a
>> decrease in mileage. It will also do an excellent job of cleaning your fuel
>> system. If you haven't been using it regularly expect to need to
>> replace your fuel filter within a hundred miles after your first
>> tank.

>Didn't see that happen on my '78 or my '72 when I started using
>gasoline with ethanol. I'll sure be on guard when I fire up the '50
>this next week.

I assume your complaint is with the changing fuel filter part and not
the mileage. (Your mileage concerns are addressed below.)
http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheets/rem/rem-26.htm is a state
sponsored site that is directed at station owners and not users but it
contains the following statement - "The ethanol in an ethanol-blend
gasoline acts as a solvent and may dissolve and/or loosen materials
such as bottom sludge and some wall coatings on petroleum storage
tanks. The loosened materials will be suspended in the gasoline and
may cause pump filters and vehicle fuel lines to clog." Again, Google
it yourself and you will find lots of confirmation that ethanol will
quickly remove deposits from tank walls and suspend it in the fuel.

<snip>
>Quick question, how do you get condensation in a closed loop fuel
>system? Isn't the void air still drawn in through a moisture trap they
>started using in the late '70s?

Yes, when they sealed the fuel system in the 70's it did greatly
reduce the breathing of the system. But it isn't prefect and air still
escapes from the system to be replaced later when the tank cools. I
don't know what you mean by a "moisture trap". Air is drawn in through
a block valve in the gas cap but no moisture is removed.

>> Personally I would gladly pay a 10% premium (30 cents/gallon extra)
>> NOT to have ethanol because my mileage suffers almost that much with
>> it. When I'm traveling and can get a tank of "real" gas, it seems to
>> make a noticeable difference in performance also. On the other hand,
>> I haven't had a fuel line problem in many years because it does keep
>> the system clean.

>Both the C5 and my C6 average 28/32 MPG and how I drive it makes more
>difference than the fuel with ethanol. Yet you say they should drop to
>20/26 MPG? The only time I've ever seen that was at the track,
>although it ran about there before it was broke in.

I said I ALMOST lost 10% in mileage. A 10% loss would turn 28/32 into
25.2/28.8 not 20/26. I totally agree that the way the car is driven
can have a much larger effect. Even with the awesome drag coefficient
of a Corvette, the difference between a strong head wind and a strong
tail wind can be almost this much. But your driving style and other
factors are all based on the same difference in fuel. If you got 28mpg
on real gas on the highway at 65 but only 25 at 90, then you might get
25.2 at 65 and 22.5 at 90. The fact that you get better mileage on
ethanol at 65 than on real gas at 90mph is very misleading.

There are 2 factors than make ethanol give worse mileage. First is the
lower BTU/gallon (77KBTU/gal vs. 110KBTU/Gal). Next, because ethanol
has a higher octane rating (it burns slower), when it is mixed with
gasoline they use a lower quality gas to get back to the same total
octane rating.

>> It won't hurt the car if you use it regularly. You'll just get lower
>> mileage and less performance. Just make sure you have a spare fuel
>> filter and the tools to change one on the side of the road when you
>> first start using it.

>Oops there Kemosahbee, the fuel filter on the late C5s and the C6 and
>a number of GM cars are on the fuel pump and that's inside the gas
>tank. Not really a wrench job as they are stab-loc fittings prior to
>that and I'll not drop a fuel tank beside the road. You could wrench
>one on the early C5s but you need to drop the left exhaust pipe also.

I'll grant that the newest Corvettes do not have an easily replaceable
fuel filter. A C6 would also not have had enough time to have formed a
significant amount of corrosion in the tank. So if you have a C6
ethanol would not significantly clean the system so it should be no
problem. A '97 C5 is another story.

BTW, I was being facetious when I discussed changing a filter on the
side of the road. That is what towing insurance is for.

>Personally I look forward to the day to arrive that the technology is
>in place to allow us to run 100% ethanol. I'd much rather deal with
>our farmers than I do the mid-east.

How about them Canadians. We buy more oil from Canada than any other
country. And them evil Mexicans are right there next in line. The
Saudi's come in 3rd. Then there's Venezuela, and Nigeria. If we add up
all our imports down to Chad, then we import less than 25% of our
crude oil from the Mid-East and more than 75% from those "unknown"
countries who charge the same amount for a barrel of oil as the Arabs.

Remember, drinking and driving don't mix. Drink ethanol but don't
drive with it.

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> On or about Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:11:17 -0400, "Dad"
> > wrote or did cause to be written:
>
> <snip>
>>I'd sure like to read more about that, do you have a site that would
>>give some more facts about the tax breaks?
>
> Google is your friend. http://zfacts.com/p/35.html is just one
> admittedly biased source but I post it because it has lots of other
> inconvenient facts. To Google the tax breaks yourself, you might
> want
> to include ADM (Archer Daniels Midland) the largest producer of
> ethanol in your search criteria. Both the states and the feds give
> large breaks to producers of ethanol (ADM).

I can see by the zfacts that we are at the opposite ends of this issue
so I'll try not to belabor the point.

It is also apparent that you jumped in here from soc.culture.usa
alt.politics.immigration alt.mexico alt.california to push a political
inspired position and not a factual use of ethanol.

First off Google is not my friend and is very much to the left. Every
notice the don't change their logo on Veterans day as they do on most
other holidays?

You need to get used to the fact that large tax breaks are given to
large companies, (money), by your elected officials as you have
instructed them to do by voting for them.

Second the bill that started all of the subsidies you refer to was
signed into effect by Jimmy Carter in 1979. More than enough time for
something to be done about it if you feel strongly against its use.
>
>>> Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline so expect a
>>> decrease in mileage. It will also do an excellent job of cleaning
>>> your fuel
>>> system. If you haven't been using it regularly expect to need to
>>> replace your fuel filter within a hundred miles after your first
>>> tank.
>
>>Didn't see that happen on my '78 or my '72 when I started using
>>gasoline with ethanol. I'll sure be on guard when I fire up the '50
>>this next week.
>
> I assume your complaint is with the changing fuel filter part and
> not
> the mileage. (Your mileage concerns are addressed below.)
> http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheets/rem/rem-26.htm is a state
> sponsored site that is directed at station owners and not users but
> it
> contains the following statement - "The ethanol in an ethanol-blend
> gasoline acts as a solvent and may dissolve and/or loosen materials
> such as bottom sludge and some wall coatings on petroleum storage
> tanks. The loosened materials will be suspended in the gasoline and
> may cause pump filters and vehicle fuel lines to clog." Again,
> Google
> it yourself and you will find lots of confirmation that ethanol will
> quickly remove deposits from tank walls and suspend it in the fuel.

The site I posted clearly states that the accumulated varnish and
trash will be dislodged by ethanol. It also states that that has not
happened to cars to any extent for many years. The above site is for
the cleaning of bulk tanks and its transfer systems to eliminate the
contamination from being pumped into an automobile. It also states
that if they don't it will cause users to take action for the dirty
fuel. Nothing was said about it moving varnish or trash that could
have already been in the car in question. Maybe you should try to read
the posted material instead of pushing a moot point.
>
> <snip>
>>Quick question, how do you get condensation in a closed loop fuel
>>system? Isn't the void air still drawn in through a moisture trap
>>they
>>started using in the late '70s?
>
> Yes, when they sealed the fuel system in the 70's it did greatly
> reduce the breathing of the system. But it isn't prefect and air
> still
> escapes from the system to be replaced later when the tank cools. I
> don't know what you mean by a "moisture trap". Air is drawn in
> through
> a block valve in the gas cap but no moisture is removed.

Again, had you read the posted site you would see that the moisture
problem is a thing of the past because of the closed loop fuel system.
Clearly stated that moisture is a rare event in the current fuel
systems. Not so rare if the bulk tanks leak and that was also
addressed in your site recommendation.
>
>>> Personally I would gladly pay a 10% premium (30 cents/gallon
>>> extra)
>>> NOT to have ethanol because my mileage suffers almost that much
>>> with
>>> it. When I'm traveling and can get a tank of "real" gas, it seems
>>> to
>>> make a noticeable difference in performance also. On the other
>>> hand,
>>> I haven't had a fuel line problem in many years because it does
>>> keep
>>> the system clean.
>
>>Both the C5 and my C6 average 28/32 MPG and how I drive it makes
>>more
>>difference than the fuel with ethanol. Yet you say they should drop
>>to
>>20/26 MPG? The only time I've ever seen that was at the track,
>>although it ran about there before it was broke in.
>
> I said I ALMOST lost 10% in mileage. A 10% loss would turn 28/32
> into
> 25.2/28.8 not 20/26. I totally agree that the way the car is driven
> can have a much larger effect. Even with the awesome drag
> coefficient
> of a Corvette, the difference between a strong head wind and a
> strong
> tail wind can be almost this much. But your driving style and other
> factors are all based on the same difference in fuel. If you got
> 28mpg
> on real gas on the highway at 65 but only 25 at 90, then you might
> get
> 25.2 at 65 and 22.5 at 90. The fact that you get better mileage on
> ethanol at 65 than on real gas at 90mph is very misleading.
>
> There are 2 factors than make ethanol give worse mileage. First is
> the
> lower BTU/gallon (77KBTU/gal vs. 110KBTU/Gal). Next, because ethanol
> has a higher octane rating (it burns slower), when it is mixed with
> gasoline they use a lower quality gas to get back to the same total
> octane rating.

My bad, I did read the 30 cents a gallon as a 30% lose in mileage. I
still strongly doubt that you can differentiate between driving
habits, weather, different fuel suppliers, accurate calculations,
formulations, traffic flow, and ethanol to determine a percentage of
significant change in fuel mileage. Now if it were a controlled test
as the fuel companies do, and they do report less mileage but much
less than 10%, then your percentage would be believable.
>
>>> It won't hurt the car if you use it regularly. You'll just get
>>> lower
>>> mileage and less performance. Just make sure you have a spare fuel
>>> filter and the tools to change one on the side of the road when
>>> you
>>> first start using it.
>
>>Oops there Kemosahbee, the fuel filter on the late C5s and the C6
>>and
>>a number of GM cars are on the fuel pump and that's inside the gas
>>tank. Not really a wrench job as they are stab-loc fittings prior to
>>that and I'll not drop a fuel tank beside the road. You could wrench
>>one on the early C5s but you need to drop the left exhaust pipe
>>also.
>
> I'll grant that the newest Corvettes do not have an easily
> replaceable
> fuel filter. A C6 would also not have had enough time to have formed
> a
> significant amount of corrosion in the tank. So if you have a C6
> ethanol would not significantly clean the system so it should be no
> problem. A '97 C5 is another story.

No, it would be the same story, no filter change required unless
something has contaminated the fuel system like improper or dirty
fuel. Maybe a '77 but not a '97 and then only if it sits for years as
some Corvettes do.

> BTW, I was being facetious when I discussed changing a filter on the
> side of the road. That is what towing insurance is for.

By the way I was poking fun at your suggestion to be prepared to
change a filter by the side of the road unless you just took the car
out of a five year storage.

>>Personally I look forward to the day to arrive that the technology
>>is
>>in place to allow us to run 100% ethanol. I'd much rather deal with
>>our farmers than I do the mid-east.
>
> How about them Canadians. We buy more oil from Canada than any other
> country. And them evil Mexicans are right there next in line. The
> Saudi's come in 3rd. Then there's Venezuela, and Nigeria. If we add
> up
> all our imports down to Chad, then we import less than 25% of our
> crude oil from the Mid-East and more than 75% from those "unknown"
> countries who charge the same amount for a barrel of oil as the
> Arabs.

Oil is bid on, sellers don't charge anybody, it is bid off on the open
market (?) which has become impossible to know where it came from in
some cases after it has traveled through many brokers books. The
figures you cite have many flaws and are dated but probably as close
as they will every get due to all the special interest manipulation.

> Remember, drinking and driving don't mix. Drink ethanol but don't
> drive with it.
>
That's just a little silly, I'm sure you told Patrick that, but then
you can do what you like such as spread slanted information about the
horror stories of ethanol fuel. We have been using it in the Midwest
for years and there are few if any that I've seen suffer for its use
as you suggest. It's here to stay and recommended by the automobile
companies for what every that does for you.

Enjoy your Corvette if you every have one,

--
Dad
05 C6 Silver/Red 6spd Z51
72 Shark Black/Black/4spd