Alcohol as a fuel

Richard wrote:

>>>Is this measured in dollars only, or are the cost of war and lives and
>>>pollution (does alcohol burn cleaner? I don't know) also considered?
>>
>>War? gimme a break.
>>
>
> I guess it is only this country's compassion for women and children that
> leads to war, right? Never the profit of it's politicians and corporations?
>
Well, its certainly NOT oil. At least not recently, liberal bleating
notwithstanding.

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Steve wrote:
> >
> > > As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more
widely
> > > available in the US?
> >
> > Because the amount of energy you have to put IN to the process of making
> > alcohol pretty much offsets the amount you get OUT when you burn it.
> > Some claim that producing alcohol for fuel results in a net energy loss,
> > but whether its loss or small gain it is definitely so close to the
> > break-even point that its not a terribly practical fuel.
> >
> > The reason its cheap in some places is that its heavily subsidized.
> > Subsidies like that could never prop it up as a mainstream fuel, but
> > make it look tantalizing when it can be a "boutique" fuel as in today's
> > market.
>
> I think you are forgetting that "fuel" is not the only
> product of the ethanol creation process. The left over mash
> is dried and used as animal feed. Most of the "alcohol is
> uneconomic" crowd ignore this byproduct. You might also want
> to read http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0417-23.htm for
> a positive spin on ethanol.
>
> Ed
Anyone ever complained of light-headedness after eating a Brazilian
steak? Darn, alcoholic cows!!!

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Steve wrote:
> >
> > > As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more
widely
> > > available in the US?
> >
> > Because the amount of energy you have to put IN to the process of making
> > alcohol pretty much offsets the amount you get OUT when you burn it.
> > Some claim that producing alcohol for fuel results in a net energy loss,
> > but whether its loss or small gain it is definitely so close to the
> > break-even point that its not a terribly practical fuel.
> >
> > The reason its cheap in some places is that its heavily subsidized.
> > Subsidies like that could never prop it up as a mainstream fuel, but
> > make it look tantalizing when it can be a "boutique" fuel as in today's
> > market.
>
> I think you are forgetting that "fuel" is not the only
> product of the ethanol creation process. The left over mash
> is dried and used as animal feed. Most of the "alcohol is
> uneconomic" crowd ignore this byproduct. You might also want
> to read http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0417-23.htm for
> a positive spin on ethanol.
>
> Ed

There was a small scale distillation tower built by the crew at the Mother
Earth News magazine back when it was a real magazine in the '70's. They got
all the heat they needed for the distillation process by burning the dry
corn cobs. I don't remember if they used organic fertilizer, i.e. manure,
or not. Seems to me that this could be done on a larger scale. Of course,
you can't get away from the energy required to harvest, transport, grind and
shell the corn. And yes, the leftover mash was found to be a good animal
feed. I've got that issue down in the basement somewhere, and might dig it
out.

Garrett Fulton

so it is a mistake to think that ethanol is even remotely
> "green".

Depends. In Brasil, they don't necessarily deal with a lot of pesticides,
fertilizers, etc. I have been in some of the alcohol distilleries where
sugar is the prime product and alcohol is made from the residues. A good
bit of the heat required to perform the distillation was obtained from
burning bagasse. (Now, the alcohol IMHO had a better use than burning in a
car. The batida called caipirinha is a good example. Also very green)

The residues can be dried and burned, added to animal feed, or used as
fertilizer in some cases.

Tractor cultivated, chemically fertilized, petroleum distilled corn mash is
not the only answer. We in America often tend to see the situation in this
historical perspective.

If you dont have adequate petroleum, then it doesnt make a crap what the
energy cost is to convert simple sugars or starches to alcohol. If you must
have liquid fuel, then you have to pay what it costs to get it or devise
alternate technology.

I believe there may come a time when petroleum will be too valuable to burn
as we do today. We Americans have been global petroleum hogs for decades,
and are beginning to get competition from other nations which are
approaching our industrializm.

Mike Romain wrote:
> Basically the big scam now is they are adding 'alcohol' to our fuel
> because it is 'politically' correct and ups their profit margin to the
> extreme!
>
> When they add that 5 or 10% 'alcohol', the gas mileage on most vehicles
> drops by 30 to 50% so by making farmers feel good, they are making us
> fill up twice as often.
>
> Just one of my Jeeps for instance gets well over 350 miles plus on a
> tank of 'real' gasoline. Add alcohol and I am out of gas at 200 - 225
> miles. Off road I don't get 100 miles with that mix vs an easy 200
> miles running gas.
>
> It is a total rip off scam.
>
> Mike
>
While I am certainly no ethanol booster, I do not notice anything like
the drop Mike sees. I see less than a 5% drop compared to regular.

My Neon has a knock sensor, and when I use regular rather than premium I
suspect the spark retards just a bit. I interpret the fact that I do not
notice the predicted 5-7 percent drop to the fact that the ethanol has
much higher octane, even higher than the premium I occasionally use, and
so the spark is probably advancing to a better, more efficient setting.

Lucila wrote:
>
> There was a small scale distillation tower built by the crew at the Mother
> Earth News magazine back when it was a real magazine in the '70's. They got
> all the heat they needed for the distillation process by burning the dry
> corn cobs. I don't remember if they used organic fertilizer, i.e. manure,
> or not. Seems to me that this could be done on a larger scale. Of course,
> you can't get away from the energy required to harvest, transport, grind and
> shell the corn. And yes, the leftover mash was found to be a good animal
> feed. I've got that issue down in the basement somewhere, and might dig it
> out.
>
> Garrett Fulton
>
>

I wonder how many grams of CO2 are given off per thousand BTU in burning
corn cobs. We need to come up with a way to make biofuels that not only
is cost effective, it needs to be environment friendly, and CO2 is not
friendly.

Also, if we want to make farmers happy, seems to me that making Diesel
fuel from soybeans is more efficient (and hence probably more
environmentally friendly) than ethanol. And, if you can get kerosene
from it, you can get gasoline from it. Also, I talked to someone one
time whose family had a farm in these parts, and they were working on
making Diesel fuel from sunflower oil.

On Wed, 4 May 2005, Don Stauffer wrote:

> Mike Romain wrote:

> > Just one of my Jeeps for instance gets well over 350 miles plus on a
> > tank of 'real' gasoline. Add alcohol and I am out of gas at 200 - 225
> > miles. Off road I don't get 100 miles with that mix vs an easy 200
> > miles running gas.

> While I am certainly no ethanol booster, I do not notice anything like
> the drop Mike sees.

Mike "sees" lots of fascinating stuff that isn't real.

burn alcohol inside a combustion chamber? what a waste

i can already picture an aftermarket spigot which you poke into the
bottom of the gas tank to serve your friends when your out camping.

"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Don Stauffer wrote:
>
> > Mike Romain wrote:
>
> > > Just one of my Jeeps for instance gets well over 350 miles plus on a
> > > tank of 'real' gasoline. Add alcohol and I am out of gas at 200 - 225
> > > miles. Off road I don't get 100 miles with that mix vs an easy 200
> > > miles running gas.
>
> > While I am certainly no ethanol booster, I do not notice anything like
> > the drop Mike sees.
>
> Mike "sees" lots of fascinating stuff that isn't real.

Ahh.... to have lived such a sheltered life, must be nice Daniel....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Well, I wish you could have visited Brasil when I lived there.

The alcohol had much better ends than to be burned in a
Fuscão, and your 'spigot' got the attention it deserved.