British traffic signal lights

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Harry K wrote:
>
> > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > > wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > as we have nearly all master moving off the help by knowing when the
> > > > clutch bite point.
> > >
> > > How often do you have your clutch plate replaced doing that ? Holding a car on
> > > the clutch on a hill for any length of time instead of applying the handbrake is
> > > plain berserk.
> > >
> > > Graham
> >
> > He said nothing at all about -holding- the car on the hill with the
> > clutch, only moving off.
>
> Somewhere in this thread, one of the posters definitely mentioned *not* using the
> handbrake *even on a hill*. That therefore implies holding the car on the clutch.
>
> > Anyone who drives a should be be adept at
> > holding a car on hill using the -service- brakes then moving off
> > without rolling back. Jeez, I was doing that back when I was 14 in 1
> > 1/2 trucks, it isn't rocket science.
>
> Well... yes. I agree. Apparently 'Dave' seems more concerned about his 'convenience'
> however. Since he drives an auto it's not the same issue though.
>
> Graham

If you own a Studebaker or Subaru there's no problem (owners of
either should know what I'm talking about)

nate

>
> To drive off in a vehicle with manual transmission you need to use the
> accelerator and
> clutch.
>
> If you know of a way of holding the car braked on a hill whilst using the
> accelerator
> and clutch that doesn't involve 3 feet please let me know !
>
> Any intelligent person sets the handbrake on a hill after coming to a
> halt. Thereafter
> you don't need to use the brake pedal.
>
> To set off - engage gear, apply a slight amount of accelerator whilst
> releasing the
> clutch and disengaging the handbrake. It's second nature when you've
> learnt to drive
> properly.
>
> Graham
>

You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using JUST
the clutch and accelerator. Once they master that skill, they need to
practice releasing the brake pedal and THEN holding the car steady on a hill
using just the clutch and accelerator, without rolling backward. For
learning purposes ONLY, the hand brake should be used until you get a feel
for where your clutch start to "grab" and how much "gas" to give the engine
so it doesn't die on you.

Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT hold a
car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator pedal. There are
also a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can not release the
brake pedal on a hill (and not use a hand brake) without rolling backwards.

But any competent DRIVER knows that two feet (at most) is all that is needed
to hold a car steady on a hill without using any brake (hand or foot),
regardless of type of transmission. And FWIW, I've seen some slushboxes
that roll backward on hills, also. So holding a car steady on a hill
without using a brake is a skill that ANY driver should have, not
necessarily just MANUAL tranny drivers. -Dave

"Ted B." wrote:

> >
> > To drive off in a vehicle with manual transmission you need to use the
> > accelerator and
> > clutch.
> >
> > If you know of a way of holding the car braked on a hill whilst using the
> > accelerator
> > and clutch that doesn't involve 3 feet please let me know !
> >
> > Any intelligent person sets the handbrake on a hill after coming to a
> > halt. Thereafter
> > you don't need to use the brake pedal.
> >
> > To set off - engage gear, apply a slight amount of accelerator whilst
> > releasing the
> > clutch and disengaging the handbrake. It's second nature when you've
> > learnt to drive
> > properly.
> >
> > Graham
> >
>
> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using JUST
> the clutch and accelerator.

Sure. But you're not meant to do that for minutes one end. The clutch will start
burning.

> Once they master that skill, they need to
> practice releasing the brake pedal and THEN holding the car steady on a hill
> using just the clutch and accelerator, without rolling backward. For
> learning purposes ONLY, the hand brake should be used until you get a feel
> for where your clutch start to "grab" and how much "gas" to give the engine
> so it doesn't die on you.

In normal driving you're meant to engage the handbrake when pulling up on a
hill. When you're ready to move off again, then you go re-engage gear etc....

> Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT hold a
> car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator pedal. There are
> also a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can not release the
> brake pedal on a hill (and not use a hand brake) without rolling backwards.
>
> But any competent DRIVER knows that two feet (at most) is all that is needed
> to hold a car steady on a hill without using any brake (hand or foot),
> regardless of type of transmission. And FWIW, I've seen some slushboxes
> that roll backward on hills, also. So holding a car steady on a hill
> without using a brake is a skill that ANY driver should have, not
> necessarily just MANUAL tranny drivers. -Dave

You are *NOT* meant to hold a car with the clutch on a hill indefinitely !
You'll trash the clutch. It's also plain clumsy.

Incidentally - stopping with the gear still engaged and clutch depressed also
results in unnecessary clutch release bearing wear.

Graham

>>
>> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
>> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using
>> JUST
>> the clutch and accelerator.
>
> Sure. But you're not meant to do that for minutes one end. The clutch will
> start
> burning.
>
>
> You are *NOT* meant to hold a car with the clutch on a hill indefinitely !
> You'll trash the clutch. It's also plain clumsy.
>
> Incidentally - stopping with the gear still engaged and clutch depressed
> also
> results in unnecessary clutch release bearing wear.
>
> Graham

Of course you're not supposed to hold a car on a hill for minutes on end
using just the clutch and accelerator pedals. But you are supposed to be
ABLE TO!!! Before you learn how to do that, you are dangerous, and probably
shouldn't be given a license, unless it is a restricted license, specifying
automatic transmission ONLY.

But when stopped on a hill, you don't necessarily need to keep the clutch
pedal depressed and a forward gear engaged. However, you should STILL be
ABLE to take off from a dead stop on a hill without rolling backward and
without using a hand brake!!! The leaving the car in gear and clutch pedal
depressed is an entirely different topic.

It's relatively easy to get a manual tranny vehicle rolling uphill on a
steep hill from a dead stop without using a hand brake and without rolling
backward. Yes, it takes a little practice, if you've never done it before.
But if you can't perform that very basic driving skill, you shouldn't be
behind the wheel of a car with a manual tranny. Or for that matter, I'd
suggest someone without that skill shouldn't be behind the wheel, period.
But that's just IMHO. -Dave

"Ted B." wrote:

> >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
> >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using
> >> JUST
> >> the clutch and accelerator.
> >
> > Sure. But you're not meant to do that for minutes one end. The clutch will
> > start
> > burning.
> >
> >
> > You are *NOT* meant to hold a car with the clutch on a hill indefinitely !
> > You'll trash the clutch. It's also plain clumsy.
> >
> > Incidentally - stopping with the gear still engaged and clutch depressed
> > also
> > results in unnecessary clutch release bearing wear.
> >
> > Graham
>
> Of course you're not supposed to hold a car on a hill for minutes on end
> using just the clutch and accelerator pedals. But you are supposed to be
> ABLE TO!!! Before you learn how to do that, you are dangerous, and probably
> shouldn't be given a license, unless it is a restricted license, specifying
> automatic transmission ONLY.

Of course I'm *able* to !

I don't intend burning out the clutch in reality however.

> But when stopped on a hill, you don't necessarily need to keep the clutch
> pedal depressed and a forward gear engaged.

I don't. I apply the handbrake and take the car out of gear. That's what you're
supposed to do. It makes perfect sense.

> However, you should STILL be
> ABLE to take off from a dead stop on a hill without rolling backward and
> without using a hand brake!!! The leaving the car in gear and clutch pedal
> depressed is an entirely different topic.
>
> It's relatively easy to get a manual tranny vehicle rolling uphill on a
> steep hill from a dead stop without using a hand brake and without rolling
> backward. Yes, it takes a little practice, if you've never done it before.
> But if you can't perform that very basic driving skill, you shouldn't be
> behind the wheel of a car with a manual tranny. Or for that matter, I'd
> suggest someone without that skill shouldn't be behind the wheel, period.

What you suggest above isn't normal practice however. Sure, if you plays footsie
with the pedals, it can be done, even using the footbrake as well too.

Graham

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Ted B. wrote:

> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using JUST
> the clutch and accelerator.

What are you? A clutch manufacturer's rep? A clutch installer? Or just a
retard? It's gotta be one of the three, 'cause holding a car steady on an
incline by balancing the clutch against the accelerator is an excellent
way of roasting the clutch and doing variably tremendous amounts of
collateral thermal damage to such components as the flywheel, clutch
release bearing, clutch hydraulics if applicable, etc.

> Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT hold a
> car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator pedal.

....not as many as there are masterful manual-trans drivers who *could*,
but know not to.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, N8N wrote:

> If you own a Studebaker or Subaru there's no problem (owners of
> either should know what I'm talking about)

....or an old Mopar with one of these installed:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4562853613

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Ted B. wrote:
>
>> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
>> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using
>> JUST
>> the clutch and accelerator.
>
> What are you? A clutch manufacturer's rep? A clutch installer? Or just a
> retard? It's gotta be one of the three, 'cause holding a car steady on an
> incline by balancing the clutch against the accelerator is an excellent
> way of roasting the clutch and doing variably tremendous amounts of
> collateral thermal damage to such components as the flywheel, clutch
> release bearing, clutch hydraulics if applicable, etc.
>
>> Now there are a lot of incompetent manual tranny drivers who can NOT hold
>> a
>> car steady on a hill using just the clutch and accelerator pedal.
>
> ...not as many as there are masterful manual-trans drivers who *could*,
> but know not to.
>

YO!!! As I wrote elsewhere, I know not to do it, myself. But there is a
huge difference between not doing it and not BEING ABLE to do it. If you
can't do it, you shouldn't be driving. IMHO That doesn't mean I think it's
a good idea, just something that all drivers SHOULD be able to do. -Dave

N8N wrote:
> Pooh Bear wrote:
> > Harry K wrote:
> >
> > > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > > as we have nearly all master moving off the help by knowing when the
> > > > > clutch bite point.
> > > >
> > > > How often do you have your clutch plate replaced doing that ? Holding a car on
> > > > the clutch on a hill for any length of time instead of applying the handbrake is
> > > > plain berserk.
> > > >
> > > > Graham
> > >
> > > He said nothing at all about -holding- the car on the hill with the
> > > clutch, only moving off.
> >
> > Somewhere in this thread, one of the posters definitely mentioned *not* using the
> > handbrake *even on a hill*. That therefore implies holding the car on the clutch.
> >
> > > Anyone who drives a should be be adept at
> > > holding a car on hill using the -service- brakes then moving off
> > > without rolling back. Jeez, I was doing that back when I was 14 in 1
> > > 1/2 trucks, it isn't rocket science.
> >
> > Well... yes. I agree. Apparently 'Dave' seems more concerned about his 'convenience'
> > however. Since he drives an auto it's not the same issue though.
> >
> > Graham
>
> If you own a Studebaker or Subaru there's no problem (owners of
> either should know what I'm talking about)
>
> nate

Jeez, I had forgotten about those.

Harry K

Pooh Bear wrote:
> "Ted B." wrote:
>
> > >> You're kidding, right? One of the first things any manual tranny
> > >> driver -should- learn is how to hold a car steady on an incline using
> > >> JUST
> > >> the clutch and accelerator.
> > >
> > > Sure. But you're not meant to do that for minutes one end. The clutch will
> > > start
> > > burning.
> > >
> > >
> > > You are *NOT* meant to hold a car with the clutch on a hill indefinitely !
> > > You'll trash the clutch. It's also plain clumsy.
> > >
> > > Incidentally - stopping with the gear still engaged and clutch depressed
> > > also
> > > results in unnecessary clutch release bearing wear.
> > >
> > > Graham
> >
> > Of course you're not supposed to hold a car on a hill for minutes on end
> > using just the clutch and accelerator pedals. But you are supposed to be
> > ABLE TO!!! Before you learn how to do that, you are dangerous, and probably
> > shouldn't be given a license, unless it is a restricted license, specifying
> > automatic transmission ONLY.
>
> Of course I'm *able* to !
>
> I don't intend burning out the clutch in reality however.
>
> > But when stopped on a hill, you don't necessarily need to keep the clutch
> > pedal depressed and a forward gear engaged.
>
> I don't. I apply the handbrake and take the car out of gear. That's what you're
> supposed to do. It makes perfect sense.
>
> > However, you should STILL be
> > ABLE to take off from a dead stop on a hill without rolling backward and
> > without using a hand brake!!! The leaving the car in gear and clutch pedal
> > depressed is an entirely different topic.
> >
> > It's relatively easy to get a manual tranny vehicle rolling uphill on a
> > steep hill from a dead stop without using a hand brake and without rolling
> > backward. Yes, it takes a little practice, if you've never done it before.
> > But if you can't perform that very basic driving skill, you shouldn't be
> > behind the wheel of a car with a manual tranny. Or for that matter, I'd
> > suggest someone without that skill shouldn't be behind the wheel, period.
>
> What you suggest above isn't normal practice however. Sure, if you plays footsie
> with the pedals, it can be done, even using the footbrake as well too.
>
> Graham

Okay, basic lesson on starting on a hill with a manual.

Hold with foot brake.
Engage gear.
While holding brake, pivot foot over to gas
Feed gas while easing out clutch to 'just begin to grab' point.
More gas, more clutch and release brake.

That was one of the first lessons I taught my younger siblings back in
the 50s.

I have never driven a vehicle from econoboxes up to C60s that you
couldn't hit both brake and gas with the right foot.

Harry K