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#21
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"gixer" > wrote:
>The thing is though living a densely populated city (Athens) it's a case of >you learn very quickly to drive well, if you don't then you will get through >a lot of cars very quickly, your concentration levels have to be very high, >because you have vehicles, pedestrians, scooters, motorbikes, buses and >taxis all around you, near on 24 hours a day, Where would you rank Athens on the scale Rotterdam - Brussels - Paris - Rome - Jakarta? >I found that generally in the states people do not really concentrate to >hard when driving, of course New York and LA are obvious exceptions as are >downtown in many of the major cities, but in the less densely populated >cities I have been over there, people are not generally switched on while >driving, Well over here in Tallahassee they are. Their cell phone is switched on pretty much all of the time. > they are not really completely aware of their surroundings, Here they are. They are fully aware that they are talking on a cell phone. >I was with a mate in San Francisco we were talking about driving standards >and I gave him my opinion that in the San Fran area the standards were >pretty low, he got ****ed off and asked what evidence did I have to back >this up, so I put my hand over his rear view mirror and asked him what was >behind, he had no idea at all near on every time, The most challenging part of driving in SF is apparently the hills. That is, if you have a manual. We have had at least one SF Miata owner here whining that a manual Miata was just not possible in SF. I drove some in SF myself, but did not see anything steeper than you can find in mountainous Holland. Leon > in Athens most people have >a very good idea of their surroundings most of the time, but then you have >to have because road markings are nearly always worn away, sign posts are >usually that badly faded of missing all together, the roads are extremely >bad so you have to keep a constant eye out for alloy wheel swallowing pot >holes, people are of the general opinion that if they have been waiting to >cross the road for more than 3 mins they automatically have the right to >step out in front of any vehicle, parking is a case of stopping right in >front of the place you want to visit, even if there are 20 parking spaces 15 >meters further up the road, right turn lanes are there especially for people >who are soooo busy and soooo much more important than everyone else, that >they can drive down the lane specifically marked as right turn only and at >the last mm cut up the guy who has been waiting patiently in the correct >lane, causing him to stamp on his brakes, which of course causes a multi car >pile up 50 meter further back. > >Ahhhhhh the joys of living in big cities!!!!!!! > >Its really a miracle and a testament to the quality of the average Athens >driver that the hospitals are not overflowing every rush hour, and its >amazing how 1 Malaka (Jerk) can cause so much disruption,. > > > >Cheers Mark. -- Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) |
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#22
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"pws" > wrote in message . .. > Generic wrote: > > > It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite similar > > across industrialized nations. > > Do you have any sources to back this up? > I am not disputing you, it just seems logical to me that a country > that requires more stringent driver training, especially that focusing > on safety, will produce safer drivers than a country that has lesser > training. Of course, you don't necessarily drive in the country that you > learned in, so that could be a factor as well, especially in Europe. > > Each State in the US has its own laws and the > > end result doesn't change much either. This is the second link from a Google search for "traffic fatality rate international"--but is similar to stuff I've read before. Scroll down past the Australia stuff to the bottom. The critical column is 2nd from the right, persons killed per 100 million vehicle km travelled. The US is tied for the lowest rate (of those available), and better than France, Germany, Japan or Switzerland. -John |
#23
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"Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message ... > "Generic" > wrote: > > >It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite similar > >across industrialized nations. Each State in the US has its own laws and the > >end result doesn't change much either. > > Let's have the data. See my reply earlier in the same thread too. Also this: http://www.driveandstayalive.com/inf..._1988-2001.htm The US has an average-to-below-average number of road deaths per population, but the death rate is very very low when looked at in terms of deaths per miles driven. > Compared to Holland, my drivers' license test in Florida was a > complete joke. But of course, over here we have nowhere near > the traffic complexity of Holland. No doubt. -John |
#24
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"Generic" > wrote:
>"pws" > wrote in message ... >> Generic wrote: >> >> > It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite >similar >> > across industrialized nations. >> >> Do you have any sources to back this up? >> I am not disputing you, it just seems logical to me that a country >> that requires more stringent driver training, especially that focusing >> on safety, will produce safer drivers than a country that has lesser >> training. Of course, you don't necessarily drive in the country that you >> learned in, so that could be a factor as well, especially in Europe. >> >> Each State in the US has its own laws and the >> > end result doesn't change much either. > >This is the second link from a Google search for "traffic fatality rate >international"--but is similar to stuff I've read before. > > > >Scroll down past the Australia stuff to the bottom. > >The critical column is 2nd from the right, persons killed per 100 million >vehicle km travelled. The US is tied for the lowest rate (of those >available), and better than France, Germany, Japan or Switzerland. I do not agree. The critical column is deaths per 100,000 population. How likely are you to die from a traffic accident is clearly the bottom line. Persons killed per 100 Gm traveled just reflects the fact that the size of the US is vast and the population spread out, which has the effect of increasing the distances between the points where accidents are likely to happen and probably make them less dangerous and numerous. The US drivers die at a rate of 15.2, while the educated and civil drivers in the UK die at a rate of 6. I would call that a dramatic difference, much more than I expected. Especially since many US drivers are restrained by fear of lawsuits and people shooting at them from driving more aggressively, like they do elsewhere. Based on these numbers, it seems to me that it could make a dramatic difference if the drivers' education was turned from a joke into something serious. However, there is no mention of these numbers having been adjusted to exclude drunk driving. Then again, a more serious drivers education might also tend to make people more aware of the potential dangers of that. Leon -- Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) |
#25
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"Generic" > wrote:
> >"Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message .. . >> "Generic" > wrote: >> >> >It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite >similar >> >across industrialized nations. Each State in the US has its own laws and >the >> >end result doesn't change much either. >> >> Let's have the data. > >See my reply earlier in the same thread too. > > See my reply there. >Also this: > >http://www.driveandstayalive.com/inf..._1988-2001.htm > > >The US has an average-to-below-average number of road deaths per population, According to your first source, the OECD median is 11, the US is 15.2. I would not call that average to below average. The only two higher in the table are Poland and Korea. I would not call those two fair comparison material, would you? If I look at your second data, taking the latest year, 2002, it seems much the same. The US at 14.9, the UK at 6.1 deaths, as is the Netherlands, BTW. Worse than the US are only Korea, Portugal, Poland, and Greece. Not exactly what I would call fair comparison material, though I have not driven in any of those four countries. However, I did drive in Italy, and that the death rate of the timid US drivers would outnumber that of the aggressive Italians by 27% is just a joke. Leon >but the death rate is very very low when looked at in terms of deaths per >miles driven. > > >> Compared to Holland, my drivers' license test in Florida was a >> complete joke. But of course, over here we have nowhere near >> the traffic complexity of Holland. > >No doubt. > >-John > -- Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) |
#26
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Carol wrote:
> It was not only a Miata, it was my first - the car I had wanted for years > and years and it was less than 6 months old. VERY sad. But happy for me > because in spite of what the doctors first thought, I did live to type about > it later. And in a few more months from now they will probably even take the > steel bolts out of my leg! Woo hoo! You can see a picture of the dearly > departed here... http://tinyurl.com/d4yhl Holy crap, you are lucky to still be here. Red light runners should be shot, along with people who tailgate (slightly kidding). In 20+ years of driving, I have seen one car pulled over for running a red light, and none that was obviously pulled over for tailgating. For some reason, the police in my area and the other places in America that I have driven find it more important to give people tickets for doing 10 mph over the speed limit on the highway than to enforce safety violations that are far more likely to cause the type of injuries that you have suffered. Glad to see that your attitude is still good. I am not sure that I would be able to manage the same after getting hit by the POS. By the way, what was the age of the driver and what vehicle did the driver hit you with, and was the driver intoxicated, if you don't mind me asking? Best wishes on your recovery! pat |
#27
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Never driven in Jakarta
But Athens is definitely worse than Rotterdam and Brussels, I have never had any problem in Paris, usually if your on the ring road you at 5kmh or slower anyways, Rome is pretty bad, because the climate is warmer like Greece scooters are very popular, they are the main worry from my experiences. I would honestly say that Athens traffic and standard of driving is worse than all, the only one that comes close in my opinion is Rome, but then a fellow worker was over here for the Olympics he hired a car out but only drove it once, scared him half to death, so that clutches it for me, > The most challenging part of driving in SF is apparently the hills. > That is, if you have a manual. We have had at least one SF Miata > owner here whining that a manual Miata was just not possible in SF. > I drove some in SF myself, but did not see anything steeper than > you can find in mountainous Holland. I've been to SF many times, my main office is there, what complete rubbish the hills are not that bad, Lombard is a farce its no steeper than the roads around it, If you can't do a hill start in a manual you shouldn't be driving one in my opinion, In fact with the ability to modulate the clutch I think I would prefer a manual in hilly areas, I find in my Auto on slippy hills it is difficult to get the power down when pulling from a standstill, you have to apply some power before releasing the brake otherwise the car rolls back, but if you apply to much you get wheel spin, a manual is far easier to control. Where I live in Athens is up the side of a mountain, there are not as many hilly roads but what hilly roads there are, they are steeper and narrower, only difference is that the road surfaces are that bad here that when it rains not even 4x4's can get up most the steeper hills. My Mrs has a 1.4 Renault Megane, if the AC is on the car does not have enough power to make it up the hill!!! There are a bunch of guys from the local Miata club driving to Finland and back this summer, I thought of all the guys on here saying the Miata was no good for large distance travelling, bought a smile to my face. It's extremely weird how general perceptions differ in different parts of the world, I have never met anyone with a Miata in Europe that would think of taking any other car on a tour, I am sure they are out there just I've never met one. Cheers Mark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon van Dommelen" > Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.mazda.miata Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:19 AM Subject: Had an accident in my Miata. Selling it on Ebay if anyone is interested. > "gixer" > wrote: > >>The thing is though living a densely populated city (Athens) it's a case >>of >>you learn very quickly to drive well, if you don't then you will get >>through >>a lot of cars very quickly, your concentration levels have to be very >>high, >>because you have vehicles, pedestrians, scooters, motorbikes, buses and >>taxis all around you, near on 24 hours a day, > > Where would you rank Athens on the scale > Rotterdam - Brussels - Paris - Rome - Jakarta? > >>I found that generally in the states people do not really concentrate to >>hard when driving, of course New York and LA are obvious exceptions as are >>downtown in many of the major cities, but in the less densely populated >>cities I have been over there, people are not generally switched on while >>driving, > > Well over here in Tallahassee they are. Their cell phone is switched > on pretty much all of the time. > >> they are not really completely aware of their surroundings, > > Here they are. They are fully aware that they are talking on a > cell phone. > >>I was with a mate in San Francisco we were talking about driving standards >>and I gave him my opinion that in the San Fran area the standards were >>pretty low, he got ****ed off and asked what evidence did I have to back >>this up, so I put my hand over his rear view mirror and asked him what was >>behind, he had no idea at all near on every time, > > The most challenging part of driving in SF is apparently the hills. > That is, if you have a manual. We have had at least one SF Miata > owner here whining that a manual Miata was just not possible in SF. > I drove some in SF myself, but did not see anything steeper than > you can find in mountainous Holland. > > Leon > >> in Athens most people have >>a very good idea of their surroundings most of the time, but then you have >>to have because road markings are nearly always worn away, sign posts are >>usually that badly faded of missing all together, the roads are extremely >>bad so you have to keep a constant eye out for alloy wheel swallowing pot >>holes, people are of the general opinion that if they have been waiting to >>cross the road for more than 3 mins they automatically have the right to >>step out in front of any vehicle, parking is a case of stopping right in >>front of the place you want to visit, even if there are 20 parking spaces >>15 >>meters further up the road, right turn lanes are there especially for >>people >>who are soooo busy and soooo much more important than everyone else, that >>they can drive down the lane specifically marked as right turn only and at >>the last mm cut up the guy who has been waiting patiently in the correct >>lane, causing him to stamp on his brakes, which of course causes a multi >>car >>pile up 50 meter further back. >> >>Ahhhhhh the joys of living in big cities!!!!!!! >> >>Its really a miracle and a testament to the quality of the average Athens >>driver that the hospitals are not overflowing every rush hour, and its >>amazing how 1 Malaka (Jerk) can cause so much disruption,. >> >> >> >>Cheers Mark. > > -- > Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) > http://www.dommelen.net/miata > EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) |
#28
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Thanks for the well wishes, Pat. Honestly though my attitude goes from "Kill
The SOB!" to "I could make the same stupid mistake he made (but I really doubt that's true because I don't speed or run red lights)" to "KILL HIM NOW!"...at some point it seems that actually stopping at red lights in Houston became somehow optional. The driver who hit me was an inexperienced 21 year old male who I WISH had been intoxicated because then he would have at least been arrested as they were flying me to surgery. He just got a ticket for running the light. THAT IS ALL. He was sober. He was driving a pick-up truck, and it turned over on top of my Miata after it hit me. He had some scratches on his leg from kicking out his windshield so he could crawl out. "pws" > wrote in message ... > Carol wrote: >> It was not only a Miata, it was my first - the car I had wanted for years >> and years and it was less than 6 months old. VERY sad. But happy for me >> because in spite of what the doctors first thought, I did live to type >> about it later. And in a few more months from now they will probably even >> take the steel bolts out of my leg! Woo hoo! You can see a picture of the >> dearly departed here... http://tinyurl.com/d4yhl > > Holy crap, you are lucky to still be here. Red light runners should be > shot, along with people who tailgate (slightly kidding). In 20+ years of > driving, I have seen one car pulled over for running a red light, and none > that was obviously pulled over for tailgating. > > For some reason, the police in my area and the other places in America > that I have driven find it more important to give people tickets for doing > 10 mph over the speed limit on the highway than to enforce safety > violations that are far more likely to cause the type of injuries that you > have suffered. > > Glad to see that your attitude is still good. I am not sure that I would > be able to manage the same after getting hit by the POS. > > By the way, what was the age of the driver and what vehicle did the driver > hit you with, and was the driver intoxicated, if you don't mind me asking? > > Best wishes on your recovery! > > pat |
#29
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"gixer" > wrote:
>Never driven in Jakarta >But Athens is definitely worse than Rotterdam and Brussels, I have never had >any problem in Paris, usually if your on the ring road you at 5kmh or slower I was more thinking of the city centers, not the highways around them. But it has been many years since I was there, maybe it has finally frozen up. I still remember the high-speed multiple lane changes without looking. >anyways, Rome is pretty bad, because the climate is warmer like Greece >scooters are very popular, they are the main worry from my experiences. >I would honestly say that Athens traffic and standard of driving is worse >than all, the only one that comes close in my opinion is Rome, but then a >fellow worker was over here for the Olympics he hired a car out but only >drove it once, scared him half to death, so that clutches it for me, > >> The most challenging part of driving in SF is apparently the hills. >> That is, if you have a manual. We have had at least one SF Miata >> owner here whining that a manual Miata was just not possible in SF. >> I drove some in SF myself, but did not see anything steeper than >> you can find in mountainous Holland. > >I've been to SF many times, my main office is there, what complete rubbish >the hills are not that bad, Lombard is a farce its no steeper than the roads >around it, If you can't do a hill start in a manual you shouldn't be driving >one in my opinion, >In fact with the ability to modulate the clutch I think I would prefer a >manual in hilly areas, I find in my Auto on slippy hills it is difficult to >get the power down when pulling from a standstill, you have to apply some >power before releasing the brake otherwise the car rolls back, but if you >apply to much you get wheel spin, a manual is far easier to control. Can't say I have had much trouble, but then I only drive an automatic if I need a rental. Never had much problem taking my foot of the brake while giving gas, but maybe I did not have hills steep enough or cars underpowered enough. >Where I live in Athens is up the side of a mountain, there are not as many >hilly roads but what hilly roads there are, they are steeper and narrower, >only difference is that the road surfaces are that bad here that when it >rains not even 4x4's can get up most the steeper hills. >My Mrs has a 1.4 Renault Megane, if the AC is on the car does not have >enough power to make it up the hill!!! > >There are a bunch of guys from the local Miata club driving to Finland and >back this summer, I thought of all the guys on here saying the Miata was no >good for large distance travelling, bought a smile to my face. >It's extremely weird how general perceptions differ in different parts of >the world, I have never met anyone with a Miata in Europe that would think >of taking any other car on a tour, I am sure they are out there just I've >never met one. Pet peeve of mine is Americans constantly telling me how small the Miata is. Even while it is a giant compared to the 60's sports cars it was supposed to emulate, and a lot bigger than a typical 4 seater passenger car in Holland used to be too, I think. Leon -- Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) |
#30
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"Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message news > >The critical column is 2nd from the right, persons killed per 100 million > >vehicle km travelled. The US is tied for the lowest rate (of those > >available), and better than France, Germany, Japan or Switzerland. > > I do not agree. The critical column is deaths per 100,000 > population. How likely are you to die from a traffic accident > is clearly the bottom line. Not at all!! Look at it this way. The UK is the size of just one US state, so hypothetically driving may be something like this: UK: Perhaps 200 trips per year to work (and home) over a 5 mile distance. US: Perhaps 200 trips per year to work (and home) over a 15 mile distance. The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths per population versus 15 in the US. Or. UK: Average driver take 100 trips per year. US: Average driver goes 300 trips per year. The death rate is the same: 5 per pop in the UK equals 15 per pop in the US. Wouldn't you EXPECT truck drivers to have a higher death rate than average drivers? http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5312a3.htm "During 1992--2001, fatal work-related roadway crashes most often involved collisions of vehicles (6,593 [49%]), followed by single-vehicle incidents that did not involve a collision with another vehicle or with a pedestrian (e.g., rollovers) (3,492 [26%]), and collisions between a vehicle and a stationary object (2,369 [18%]). Vehicles most commonly occupied by fatally injured workers were semi-trucks (3,780 [28%]), cars (3,140 [24%]), other and unspecified trucks (2,359 [18%]), and pickup trucks (1,607 [12%]). The annual number of deaths of pickup truck occupants increased 96%, and deaths of semi-truck occupants increased 49%. Deaths of car occupants decreased 33% (Figure). The transportation, communications, and public utilities industries, which include commercial trucking, had the largest number and rate of roadway deaths (4,358 deaths; 4.6 per 100,000 FTE workers) (Table 1). The services industry accounted for the second highest number of deaths (1,884) but had a low fatality rate (0.5). The construction; public administration; wholesale trade; agriculture, forestry, and fishing; and mining industries all had higher death rates than the overall rate for workers (1.1), ranging from 1.7 to 3.4 (Table 1). Occupations in which the largest numbers of roadway deaths occurred were transportation and material moving (6,212 deaths; 11.1 per 100,000 FTE workers). These occupations accounted for 47% of all work-related roadway fatalities (Table 2). Truck drivers, who are classified within transportation and material-moving occupations, accounted for 5,375 deaths (17.6), the highest number and rate for any single occupation. " > Persons killed per 100 Gm traveled just reflects the fact that > the size of the US is vast and the population spread out, which > has the effect of increasing the distances between the points where > accidents are likely to happen and probably make them less dangerous > and numerous. Not at all. See above. We have a lot of high speed accidents and rely on trucking to move food and goods around. We have a lot more top-heavy pick ups that are more likely to be involved in fatal accidents. More time behind the wheel = more chances of having an accident. > The US drivers die at a rate of 15.2, while the educated and > civil drivers in the UK die at a rate of 6. I would call > that a dramatic difference, much more than I expected. See above. When you look at death per hour of driving (original links) the US is very low and this suggests that US drivers are *more* safe in terms of hours spent behind the wheel. > Based on these numbers, it seems to me that it could make a > dramatic difference if the drivers' education was turned from > a joke into something serious. No, just the opposite. See above. -John |
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