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#1
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2.2 turbo EFI, cold-start problem; open/close loop? suggestions?
92 Spirit R/T.
hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine. (3-4 hours from last start). will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough, and w/ exhaust backfire. Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how cold (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely smooth. very repeatable; ODB-II shows an accurate temperature. Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside sensor inputs", if "closed" does...). changing SBEC's made no difference. (yeah, that's what the local dealer suggested, and 92 2.2/turbo SBEC's are as rare as chicken teeth ...) during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor. based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect a 5th injector stuck open during the initial 2.5 minutes (does a 2.2/Turbo EFI even have a 5th injector, or something similar?) Using the Block heater is one work-around (starts like a charm when warm), but that's of no use, when the car is somewhere I cannot plug in. any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated. |
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#2
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#3
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#4
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02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, No 5th injector,
Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr sensors i would check the the basic timing and fuel contamination in the vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major problems, there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this. SUBJECT: Long Crank Time/Rough Idle/Tip-In Sag Or Hesitation When Cold DATE: Sep. 21, 1992 THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-13-92 WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED AND WITH **ASTERISKS**. NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI ENGINE. SYMPTOM/CONDITION: In cold ambient temperatures (below 35°F or 2°C), vehicles equipped with 4 cylinder TBI engines may exhibit one or more of the following conditions during initial start up: a.. long crank times b.. rough idle (for 2-3 minutes after starting vehicle) c.. slight sag or hesitation on tip in from idle (for 2-3 minutes after starting vehicle) These symptoms may be caused by poor fuel distribution within the intake manifold, when the engine is cold. DIAGNOSIS: Verify the customer complaint by cold starting the vehicle in conditions that are as close as possible to those described in under the Symptom/Condition heading (ambient temperature, soak time, etc.). Once the complaint has been verified, use the DRB II (Scan Tool) and the appropriate diagnostic procedures manual to verify that all of the vehicle engine systems are functioning properly (no fault codes [diagnostic trouble codes] are present). If no trouble codes are present inspect the intake manifold for a raised "X" cast into the number 1 runner. The "X" is located under the letter "F" in the words "FIRING ORDER" on the top of the number 1 intake manifold runner as illustrated. Intake manifolds that DO NOT have a "X" should be replaced using the following procedure. ( See Illustration) PARTS REQUIRED: Quantity Description Part No. 1 Intake Manifold Assembly Non EGR Equipped **4667173** EGR Equipped **4667172** 1 Intake And Exhaust Manifold Gasket 4240096 > wrote in message ... > 92 Spirit R/T. > > hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine. > (3-4 hours from last start). > > will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts > it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough, > and w/ exhaust backfire. > > Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how > cold (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely > smooth. very repeatable; > > ODB-II shows an accurate temperature. > > Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop > program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside > sensor inputs", if "closed" does...). > > changing SBEC's made no difference. > (yeah, that's what the local dealer suggested, > and 92 2.2/turbo SBEC's are as rare as chicken teeth ...) > > during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust > looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what > should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor. > > based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect > a 5th injector stuck open during the initial 2.5 minutes > (does a 2.2/Turbo EFI even have a 5th injector, or something similar?) > > Using the Block heater is one work-around (starts like a charm when > warm), but that's of no use, when the car is somewhere I cannot > plug in. > > any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated. > |
#5
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02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, No 5th injector,
Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr sensors i would check the the basic timing and fuel contamination in the vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major problems, there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this. SUBJECT: Long Crank Time/Rough Idle/Tip-In Sag Or Hesitation When Cold DATE: Sep. 21, 1992 THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-13-92 WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. ALL REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED IN RED AND WITH **ASTERISKS**. NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI ENGINE. SYMPTOM/CONDITION: In cold ambient temperatures (below 35°F or 2°C), vehicles equipped with 4 cylinder TBI engines may exhibit one or more of the following conditions during initial start up: a.. long crank times b.. rough idle (for 2-3 minutes after starting vehicle) c.. slight sag or hesitation on tip in from idle (for 2-3 minutes after starting vehicle) These symptoms may be caused by poor fuel distribution within the intake manifold, when the engine is cold. DIAGNOSIS: Verify the customer complaint by cold starting the vehicle in conditions that are as close as possible to those described in under the Symptom/Condition heading (ambient temperature, soak time, etc.). Once the complaint has been verified, use the DRB II (Scan Tool) and the appropriate diagnostic procedures manual to verify that all of the vehicle engine systems are functioning properly (no fault codes [diagnostic trouble codes] are present). If no trouble codes are present inspect the intake manifold for a raised "X" cast into the number 1 runner. The "X" is located under the letter "F" in the words "FIRING ORDER" on the top of the number 1 intake manifold runner as illustrated. Intake manifolds that DO NOT have a "X" should be replaced using the following procedure. ( See Illustration) PARTS REQUIRED: Quantity Description Part No. 1 Intake Manifold Assembly Non EGR Equipped **4667173** EGR Equipped **4667172** 1 Intake And Exhaust Manifold Gasket 4240096 > wrote in message ... > 92 Spirit R/T. > > hard start below 40(F) outdoor temps, cold engine. > (3-4 hours from last start). > > will run for a few seconds, then quit. After repeated attempts > it will eventually stay running, albeit, very rough, > and w/ exhaust backfire. > > Once running for 2 1/2 minutes (almost exactly), regardless of how > cold (eg -10 below), it transforms itself, and runs absolutely > smooth. very repeatable; > > ODB-II shows an accurate temperature. > > Almost as though the EFI is transitioning from a closed/open loop > program (or vice-versa. I forget if "open" implies, "fixed, no outside > sensor inputs", if "closed" does...). > > changing SBEC's made no difference. > (yeah, that's what the local dealer suggested, > and 92 2.2/turbo SBEC's are as rare as chicken teeth ...) > > during the initial 2.5 minute back-fire in the exhaust, the exhaust > looks/smells way rich; but I've not a good idea how to figure what > should be considered "too rich" for a cold motor. > > based on experience w/ other EFI motors, I'm tempted to suspect > a 5th injector stuck open during the initial 2.5 minutes > (does a 2.2/Turbo EFI even have a 5th injector, or something similar?) > > Using the Block heater is one work-around (starts like a charm when > warm), but that's of no use, when the car is somewhere I cannot > plug in. > > any Ideas, Suggestions much appreciated. > |
#6
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
> 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, ....except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop! > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr > sensors i would check the the basic timing Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS. > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major > problems, Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of runtime. > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this. > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI > ENGINE. Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine. |
#7
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote:
> 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, ....except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop! > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr > sensors i would check the the basic timing Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS. > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major > problems, Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of runtime. > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this. > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI > ENGINE. Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine. |
#8
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I wont get in an argue match with you,and i dont play those games you play
either. i am posting as much info on a subject that i can, If you read, it states EFI (electronic Fuel Injection) which means only 1 injector, if you keep reading on it states turbo, i posted to cover both engines because i wasnt sure of the engine, that engine does have a distributor in it and is adjustable, it is not DIS, if the fuel regualtor is ruptured it will cause drivability problems of all sorts including what is posted, didnt mean to ruin your weekend pal, my humble apoligies, hope you didnt lose to much sleep over this. "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message n.umich.edu... > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote: > > > 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, > > ...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor > sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster > mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop! > > > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr > > sensors i would check the the basic timing > > Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic > timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS. > > > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major > > problems, > > Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel > pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of > runtime. > > > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this. > > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI > > ENGINE. > > Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a > 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine. > |
#9
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I wont get in an argue match with you,and i dont play those games you play
either. i am posting as much info on a subject that i can, If you read, it states EFI (electronic Fuel Injection) which means only 1 injector, if you keep reading on it states turbo, i posted to cover both engines because i wasnt sure of the engine, that engine does have a distributor in it and is adjustable, it is not DIS, if the fuel regualtor is ruptured it will cause drivability problems of all sorts including what is posted, didnt mean to ruin your weekend pal, my humble apoligies, hope you didnt lose to much sleep over this. "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message n.umich.edu... > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote: > > > 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, > > ...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor > sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster > mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop! > > > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr > > sensors i would check the the basic timing > > Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic > timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS. > > > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major > > problems, > > Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel > pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of > runtime. > > > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this. > > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI > > ENGINE. > > Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a > 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine. > |
#10
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and yes the 2.2 multipoint injection 16 valve engine does not have a
distributor. all others do "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message n.umich.edu... > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, maxpower wrote: > > > 02 sensor not effected by the cold start, its in open loop, > > ...except that if the O2 sensor heater wire is shorted to the O2 sensor > sense wires, it can cause exactly the symptoms the original poster > mentions. Remember, the O2 sensor heater wire is hot during open loop! > > > Assuming that the coolant temp is reading properly along with the otehr > > sensors i would check the the basic timing > > Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. There is no basic > timing to check; the 2.2T3 uses DIS. > > > vaccum system, if the pressure regulator ruputres it will cause major > > problems, > > Pay closer attention to the symptoms the OP mentions; ruptured fuel > pressure regulators do not magically unrupture after 2-1/2 minutes of > runtime. > > > there is also a TSB out for a complaint such as this. > > NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.2L OR 2.5L TBI > > ENGINE. > > Pay closer attention to the car the OP is working on. It is a 2.2T3, not a > 2.2 or 2.5 litre TBI engine. > |
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