Static 32 degrees BTDC!?!? No way!!! Way?

Just checked the engine code at the alternator stand base and
according to the code and Mr. Muir my engine should be timed at 5
degrees ATDC. I just now checked the static timing and it looks like
it's set to... oh, about 32 degrees BTDC. WTF?!? It's an
aftermarket pulley but it is keyed so I don't see how it could be off
that much unless it's just LAME and the timing numbers are just
bogus... but... I turned the bolt counter-clockwise the first time
I saw the test light come on at 32 degrees BTDC thinking "No way!!!"
so I could back it up a little and try again and... the bolt came
loose very easily. Hmmm... So I removed the pulley with a few
wiggles and tugs. I was not able to do that when I pulled the pulley
off of the LCB many moons ago. I had to use a 3-arm puller to get
that one off. I put my new sand seal pulley into place just enough to
line it up with the key thingie on the end of the crank and checked...
and it looked like it was also right around 30 degress BTDC. The
crank orientation got moved a tiny bit while swapping the pulley...
but it looks like this thing is timed WAAAAY too advanced. I removed
the passenger side valve cover while doing this and watched the valves
on #1 cylinder and they both closed up just as the rotor was heading
towards plug wire #1 so that much looked right like it was on the
compression stroke for #1 cylinder. What do y'all think? I know I've
heard some stories of how amazed people are when these engines run
even when the timing is waaay out, but does this sound likely to you
that mine is set at 32 BTDC and that it still runs? The reason I was
checking the timing is that I've been having trouble getting the rail
to start. Once started it seems to run pretty well... Thanks in
advance for input.

Shag wrote:
> Just checked the engine code at the alternator stand base and
> according to the code and Mr. Muir my engine should be timed at 5
> degrees ATDC. I just now checked the static timing and it looks like
> it's set to... oh, about 32 degrees BTDC. WTF?!? It's an
> aftermarket pulley but it is keyed so I don't see how it could be off
> that much unless it's just LAME and the timing numbers are just
> bogus... but... I turned the bolt counter-clockwise the first time
> I saw the test light come on at 32 degrees BTDC thinking "No way!!!"
> so I could back it up a little and try again and... the bolt came
> loose very easily. Hmmm... So I removed the pulley with a few
> wiggles and tugs. I was not able to do that when I pulled the pulley
> off of the LCB many moons ago. I had to use a 3-arm puller to get
> that one off. I put my new sand seal pulley into place just enough to
> line it up with the key thingie on the end of the crank and checked...
> and it looked like it was also right around 30 degress BTDC. The
> crank orientation got moved a tiny bit while swapping the pulley...
> but it looks like this thing is timed WAAAAY too advanced. I removed
> the passenger side valve cover while doing this and watched the valves
> on #1 cylinder and they both closed up just as the rotor was heading
> towards plug wire #1 so that much looked right like it was on the
> compression stroke for #1 cylinder. What do y'all think? I know I've
> heard some stories of how amazed people are when these engines run
> even when the timing is waaay out, but does this sound likely to you
> that mine is set at 32 BTDC and that it still runs? The reason I was
> checking the timing is that I've been having trouble getting the rail
> to start. Once started it seems to run pretty well... Thanks in
> advance for input.
>

You can NOT rely on the engine code NOR
the sainted Mr. Muir for timing advice. Period.

The ONLY thing that decides timing spec is the
particular distrib which is in the engine NOW.

Got a distrib with 2 vac hoses?? Then the initial
timing IS 5 deg ATDC. BUT......you can't
use a static timing lamp to set it.

Got ANY other distrib?? Then go he
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
and look it up.


P.S. I'm in a humorous mood tonight.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

On Fri, 13 May 2005 20:20:45 -0400, Speedy Jim > wrote:

> You can NOT rely on the engine code NOR
> the sainted Mr. Muir for timing advice. Period.
>
> The ONLY thing that decides timing spec is the
> particular distrib which is in the engine NOW.
>
> Got a distrib with 2 vac hoses?? Then the initial
> timing IS 5 deg ATDC. BUT......you can't
> use a static timing lamp to set it.
>
> Got ANY other distrib?? Then go he
> http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
> and look it up.
>
>
> P.S. I'm in a humorous mood tonight.
>
>Speedy Jim
>http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

Thanks, Speedy. Centrifugal advance only. Looks like this is the one
I have:
VW Models Equipped With "009" Distributor
Distributor: VW 126-905-205, Bosch 0231 178 009
<snip>
Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full
advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic
timing light.
------------------------------

Do y'all think I can probably trust the markings on the new pulley I
just got? It is keyed for the crankshaft key thingie. If so then I'm
gonna install it tomorrow and set my timing for static ~6 degrees BTDC
and then will check it with my timing light to see what my full
advance is and go from there.

"Shag" > wrote in message >
> Do y'all think I can probably trust the markings on the new pulley I
> just got? It is keyed for the crankshaft key thingie. If so then I'm
> gonna install it tomorrow and set my timing for static ~6 degrees BTDC
> and then will check it with my timing light to see what my full
> advance is and go from there.
>
you can check your actual TDC easily enough shag...use the "positive stop"
meathod...get out an old sparkplug and weld a bolt to the end....put it in
the number one (you can actually use *any* of the cylinders here, but yours
are all easy to get to so use number 1) turn the engine by hand slowly till
the piston contacts the stop....note degree mark on the pulley(at the seam)
then rotate the engine backwards till it touches the stop again....note
degrees on the pulley...true TDC will be halfway between the two marks at
the "stop" position.... then you can trust the pulley if you know how
accurate it is(compensate for any difference, mine is about a degree
off)....once you know for sure ,set the timing at about 30BTDC at full
advance(the standard 3000rpms is fine)....you can go as much as 32, but it
isn't always necessary to go that far....i'd try 30 first then you can bump
it up to 32 to see if the engine "likes" that....

On Fri, 13 May 2005 21:13:15 -0400, "Joey Tribiani" >
wrote:

>
>"Shag" > wrote in message >
>> Do y'all think I can probably trust the markings on the new pulley I
>> just got? It is keyed for the crankshaft key thingie. If so then I'm
>> gonna install it tomorrow and set my timing for static ~6 degrees BTDC
>> and then will check it with my timing light to see what my full
>> advance is and go from there.
>>
>you can check your actual TDC easily enough shag...use the "positive stop"
>meathod...get out an old sparkplug and weld a bolt to the end....put it in
>the number one (you can actually use *any* of the cylinders here, but yours
>are all easy to get to so use number 1) turn the engine by hand slowly till
>the piston contacts the stop....note degree mark on the pulley(at the seam)
>then rotate the engine backwards till it touches the stop again....note
>degrees on the pulley...true TDC will be halfway between the two marks at
>the "stop" position.... then you can trust the pulley if you know how
>accurate it is(compensate for any difference, mine is about a degree
>off)....once you know for sure ,set the timing at about 30BTDC at full
>advance(the standard 3000rpms is fine)....you can go as much as 32, but it
>isn't always necessary to go that far....i'd try 30 first then you can bump
>it up to 32 to see if the engine "likes" that....
>

Too late... Already did that... a few years ago for the LCB...
http://bugadventures.dyndns.org/sandseal/2.jpg :-) You may have been
the one who described the technique of how to do that to me the last
time. I still have the spark plug with the bolt welded to it. I'm
lazy. I just don't see how 2 different pulleys that both are keyed
for the crank key thingie could be off by the same amount. Plus since
it's right at 32 BTDC for *static* timing and the recommendation is 32
BTDC for *total* advance, I'm guessing that whoever set the timing
last may have just dialed it in for 32 BTDC. I really think the
timing marks on both pulleys are correct. Who knows, if I get up
early enough tomorrow and have a LOT of time to kill before everyone
else wakes up then maybe I'll go to the trouble of using my fancy
modified spark plug to find *real* TDC. I'm just really hopeful that
retarding the timing by 25 degrees or so from where it is now will
help the hard-start problem. At the very least I don't see how it
could *hurt* any. :-)

"Shag" > wrote in message
...
> Too late... Already did that... a few years ago for the LCB...
> http://bugadventures.dyndns.org/sandseal/2.jpg :-) You may have been
> the one who described the technique of how to do that to me the last
> time. I still have the spark plug with the bolt welded to it. I'm
> lazy. I just don't see how 2 different pulleys that both are keyed
> for the crank key thingie could be off by the same amount. Plus since
> it's right at 32 BTDC for *static* timing and the recommendation is 32
> BTDC for *total* advance, I'm guessing that whoever set the timing
> last may have just dialed it in for 32 BTDC. I really think the
> timing marks on both pulleys are correct. Who knows, if I get up
> early enough tomorrow and have a LOT of time to kill before everyone
> else wakes up then maybe I'll go to the trouble of using my fancy
> modified spark plug to find *real* TDC. I'm just really hopeful that
> retarding the timing by 25 degrees or so from where it is now will
> help the hard-start problem. At the very least I don't see how it
> could *hurt* any. :-)
>

im with ya shag....if the two pulleys read the same its a good chance that
they are accurate...as far as them being keyed and that translating to being
accurate, not so...the degree rings only come either engraved, screenprinted
or attatched to the pulley, so they can and sometimes are "off"...but not
usually that far....do a simple test to make sure the distributor isn't
"locked out" ....pop the cap and twist the rotorshaft to the left...it
should move, then "spring" back....if it doesn't the distributor could be
locked out(read: no advance) and therefore set for "max" advance....but i
doubt it...with it set at 32 BTDC static, it would top out around
50-52(approx) BTDC running at full advance, and the vehicle *will*run
there...and maybe even *seem* to run well there...but it tends to overheat
and detonate....and that can cause sudden loss of power that goes away after
the engine sits for a bit and cools down...it usually comes on at highway
speed or high load conditions(large grades) and is like a dead miss and can
go as far as total stall...not good for the engine....at startup it should
crank over slow and struggle to crank....kind of a slow weak
sounding(sometimes seeming to actually stop) cranking, compared to normal
faster/smoother cranking...

On Fri, 13 May 2005 21:42:54 -0400, "Joey Tribiani" >
wrote:

>
>"Shag" > wrote in message
.. .
> > Too late... Already did that... a few years ago for the LCB...
>> http://bugadventures.dyndns.org/sandseal/2.jpg :-) You may have been
>> the one who described the technique of how to do that to me the last
>> time. I still have the spark plug with the bolt welded to it. I'm
>> lazy. I just don't see how 2 different pulleys that both are keyed
>> for the crank key thingie could be off by the same amount. Plus since
>> it's right at 32 BTDC for *static* timing and the recommendation is 32
>> BTDC for *total* advance, I'm guessing that whoever set the timing
>> last may have just dialed it in for 32 BTDC. I really think the
>> timing marks on both pulleys are correct. Who knows, if I get up
>> early enough tomorrow and have a LOT of time to kill before everyone
>> else wakes up then maybe I'll go to the trouble of using my fancy
>> modified spark plug to find *real* TDC. I'm just really hopeful that
>> retarding the timing by 25 degrees or so from where it is now will
>> help the hard-start problem. At the very least I don't see how it
>> could *hurt* any. :-)
>>
>
>im with ya shag....if the two pulleys read the same its a good chance that
>they are accurate...as far as them being keyed and that translating to being
>accurate, not so...the degree rings only come either engraved, screenprinted
>or attatched to the pulley, so they can and sometimes are "off"...but not
>usually that far....do a simple test to make sure the distributor isn't
>"locked out" ....pop the cap and twist the rotorshaft to the left...it
>should move, then "spring" back...

I did do that earlier today, just to see uh... if it would move like I
thought it should move and it did. I could "advance" it manually like
that and it would spring right back.

>.if it doesn't the distributor could be
>locked out(read: no advance) and therefore set for "max" advance....but i
>doubt it...with it set at 32 BTDC static, it would top out around
>50-52(approx) BTDC running at full advance, and the vehicle *will*run
>there...and maybe even *seem* to run well there...but it tends to overheat
>and detonate....and that can cause sudden loss of power that goes away after
>the engine sits for a bit and cools down...it usually comes on at highway
>speed or high load conditions(large grades) and is like a dead miss and can
>go as far as total stall...not good for the engine....at startup it should
>crank over slow and struggle to crank....kind of a slow weak
>sounding(sometimes seeming to actually stop) cranking, compared to normal
>faster/smoother cranking...
>
Which describes *exactly* the symptoms I've been seeing so far.
Earlier I told my wife how I could see the extra advance make for hard
starting and she asked if it could also make it run crappy after
running it hard (on the highway kinda thing) and I told her I could
also see the extra advance making it run hot and causing it to
detonate and...and...and... exactly what you said. Man, I hope that
this is the problem I've been trying to nail down. Hmm... and it
would run just fine on the trails... where I was putting along
without revving the motor very high...not getting into the full
advance... it *seems* to be making more and more sense now. I'll
find out soon enough. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah... slow weak
sounding startup.... that is EXACTLY what it seems like... and I
could see why... firing too early fighting "back" against the pistons
instead of... you know. Damn.... this has GOT to be it... Must....
not... go out in the garage.... now..... Must wait until......
tomorrow....

"Shag" > wrote in message


Man, I hope that
> this is the problem I've been trying to nail down. Hmm... and it
> would run just fine on the trails... where I was putting along
> without revving the motor very high...not getting into the full
> advance... it *seems* to be making more and more sense now. I'll
> find out soon enough. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah... slow weak
> sounding startup.... that is EXACTLY what it seems like... and I
> could see why... firing too early fighting "back" against the pistons
> instead of... you know. Damn.... this has GOT to be it... Must....
> not... go out in the garage.... now..... Must wait until......
> tomorrow....

I see the light from here....I agree you are "onto" something
here...here....set that timing and take a ride...I think will see a
change...at over advanced the power is "peaky" too....at a more correct
setting it is a smooth power "band"...a smoother sounding engine, and just
"smoother" ...I think you follow me here...

On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:42:03 -0400, "Joey Tribiani" >
scribbled this interesting note:

>
>"Shag" > wrote in message
>
>
>Man, I hope that
>> this is the problem I've been trying to nail down. Hmm... and it
>> would run just fine on the trails... where I was putting along
>> without revving the motor very high...not getting into the full
>> advance... it *seems* to be making more and more sense now. I'll
>> find out soon enough. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah... slow weak
>> sounding startup.... that is EXACTLY what it seems like... and I
>> could see why... firing too early fighting "back" against the pistons
>> instead of... you know. Damn.... this has GOT to be it... Must....
>> not... go out in the garage.... now..... Must wait until......
>> tomorrow....
>
>I see the light from here....I agree you are "onto" something
>here...here....set that timing and take a ride...I think will see a
>change...at over advanced the power is "peaky" too....at a more correct
>setting it is a smooth power "band"...a smoother sounding engine, and just
>"smoother" ...I think you follow me here...
>

Which just goes to show, when you first get a used vehicle, go over it
bit by bit and find the "bugs" the previous owner left for you to
discover!:~)


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

>Which just goes to show, when you first get a used vehicle, go over it
>bit by bit and find the "bugs" the previous owner left for you to
>discover!:~)

or you just might get to buy new p&c and other wonderful bits that you
destroyed overheating the engine.............possibly just buying a
new engine altogether.

BTDT



Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply

MUADIB®

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/sster...IN%20PAGE.html

one small step for man,.....
One giant leap for attorneys.