Altima 2002 cranks but won't start

I'm working on my buddy's 2002 Altima. It cranks and acts like it's
trying to start but doesn't start. He let triple-a look at it first
and they found the valve cover gasket was leaking and one of the coils
was a bit oily. That didn't make much sense to me as far as causing
it not to start. They wanted to replace the gasket, the oily coil and
the plugs. Trouble is one of the plugs got installed too tight and
won't come out. Triple a said they have to get it out and wanted
permission to try till either it came out or broke. that wsa the only
way they would fix it. That would end up costing a fortune. So we
got the car back from them. The other plugs looked ok so I didn't
really think it was that. He had some old plugs. So we laid all
four coils with plugs in them on metal and cranked the car. I got
good fat spark on each plug. Next I pulled the fuel line at the
engine and put a pressure guage on it. I only have an old-school one
that does vacuum one way and pressure the other with the pressure just
reading 10psi. (The only engine I work on these days is the chevy 350
in my boat.) But it had no needle stop so I gave it a shot anyway.
The gauge completely whipped way past the 10psi mark and fuel started
spraying out around where I had the hose connected to the gauge. So
it seems like it's got plenty of fuel pressure. It's a single line
fuel system with no return. The filter, pump, and regulator all in
one unit in the tank. So fuel supply seems to not be the problem.

We did the obd2 thing, borrowed a scanner form autozone. We got two
p0300 random multiple misfires and one p0113 intake air temp sensor
circuit high. I wouldn't think the intake air temp sensor would keep
it from starting at all. What I see on the net about the air temp
sensor says that often there will be no symptoms other than the check
engine light.

I see on the net the engine has had issues with the crank and cam
posiiton sensors. There was a recall and they got replaced on this
one quite a few years ago. Best prices I have seen on those is around
$25 or $30 each. I hate to troubleshoot by replacing parts and my
buddy is between jobs right now as well. Is there anyway to test
those sonsors other than replacing them? Anyone know which sensor
really controls the spark timing? And is there anything else I ought
to be looking at that might be our problem? tia

"jamesgangnc" > wrote in message
...
> I'm working on my buddy's 2002 Altima. It cranks and acts like it's
> trying to start but doesn't start. He let triple-a look at it first
> and they found the valve cover gasket was leaking and one of the
> coils
> was a bit oily. That didn't make much sense to me as far as causing
> it not to start. They wanted to replace the gasket, the oily coil
> and
> the plugs. Trouble is one of the plugs got installed too tight and
> won't come out. Triple a said they have to get it out and wanted
> permission to try till either it came out or broke. that wsa the
> only
> way they would fix it. That would end up costing a fortune. So we
> got the car back from them. The other plugs looked ok so I didn't
> really think it was that. He had some old plugs. So we laid all
> four coils with plugs in them on metal and cranked the car. I got
> good fat spark on each plug. Next I pulled the fuel line at the
> engine and put a pressure guage on it. I only have an old-school
> one
> that does vacuum one way and pressure the other with the pressure
> just
> reading 10psi. (The only engine I work on these days is the chevy
> 350
> in my boat.) But it had no needle stop so I gave it a shot anyway.
> The gauge completely whipped way past the 10psi mark and fuel
> started
> spraying out around where I had the hose connected to the gauge. So
> it seems like it's got plenty of fuel pressure. It's a single line
> fuel system with no return. The filter, pump, and regulator all in
> one unit in the tank. So fuel supply seems to not be the problem.
>
> We did the obd2 thing, borrowed a scanner form autozone. We got two
> p0300 random multiple misfires and one p0113 intake air temp sensor
> circuit high. I wouldn't think the intake air temp sensor would
> keep
> it from starting at all. What I see on the net about the air temp
> sensor says that often there will be no symptoms other than the
> check
> engine light.
>
> I see on the net the engine has had issues with the crank and cam
> posiiton sensors. There was a recall and they got replaced on this
> one quite a few years ago. Best prices I have seen on those is
> around
> $25 or $30 each. I hate to troubleshoot by replacing parts and my
> buddy is between jobs right now as well. Is there anyway to test
> those sonsors other than replacing them? Anyone know which sensor
> really controls the spark timing? And is there anything else I
> ought
> to be looking at that might be our problem? tia

Fuel: While someone is turning the key to start, have someone else
spray starting fluid into the throttle body (just a light spray - two
seconds). If you get a response, then this is a fuel problem. "Fuel
problem" includes problems with the injectors not working due to an
electrical problem or blown fuse.

Air: Slightly press on the accelerator while trying to start. Normally
the throttle is completely closed and the IAC (Idle Air Control) valve
adjusts to admit air into the engine. By pressing slightly on the
accelerator, you are bypassing the IAC valve and allowing air to enter
the engine.

Combination test: While someone slightly presses on the accelerator
and turns the key to start, have someone else spray starting fluid
into the throttle body.

On Jun 17, 8:55*am, "Bill" > wrote:
> "jamesgangnc" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm working on my buddy's 2002 Altima. *It cranks and acts like it's
> > trying to start but doesn't start. *He let triple-a look at it first
> > and they found the valve cover gasket was leaking and one of the
> > coils
> > was a bit oily. *That didn't make much sense to me as far as causing
> > it not to start. *They wanted to replace the gasket, the oily coil
> > and
> > the plugs. *Trouble is one of the plugs got installed too tight and
> > won't come out. *Triple a said they have to get it out and wanted
> > permission to try till either it came out or broke. *that wsa the
> > only
> > way they would fix it. *That would end up costing a fortune. *So we
> > got the car back from them. *The other plugs looked ok so I didn't
> > really think it was that. *He had some old plugs. * So we laid all
> > four coils with plugs in them on metal and cranked the car. *I got
> > good fat spark on each plug. *Next I pulled the fuel line at the
> > engine and put a pressure guage on it. *I only have an old-school
> > one
> > that does vacuum one way and pressure the other with the pressure
> > just
> > reading 10psi. *(The only engine I work on these days is the chevy
> > 350
> > in my boat.) *But it had no needle stop so I gave it a shot anyway.
> > The gauge completely whipped way past the 10psi mark and fuel
> > started
> > spraying out around where I had the hose connected to the gauge. *So
> > it seems like it's got plenty of fuel pressure. *It's a single line
> > fuel system with no return. *The filter, pump, and regulator all in
> > one unit in the tank. *So fuel supply seems to not be the problem.
>
> > We did the obd2 thing, borrowed a scanner form autozone. *We got two
> > p0300 random multiple misfires and one p0113 intake air temp sensor
> > circuit high. *I wouldn't think the intake air temp sensor would
> > keep
> > it from starting at all. *What I see on the net about the air temp
> > sensor says that often there will be no symptoms other than the
> > check
> > engine light.
>
> > I see on the net the engine has had issues with the crank and cam
> > posiiton sensors. *There was a recall and they got replaced on this
> > one quite a few years ago. *Best prices I have seen on those is
> > around
> > $25 or $30 each. *I hate to troubleshoot by replacing parts and my
> > buddy is between jobs right now as well. *Is there anyway to test
> > those sonsors other than replacing them? *Anyone know which sensor
> > really controls the spark timing? *And is there anything else I
> > ought
> > to be looking at that might be our problem? *tia
>
> Fuel: While someone is turning the key to start, have someone else
> spray starting fluid into the throttle body (just a light spray - two
> seconds). If you get a response, then this is a fuel problem. "Fuel
> problem" includes problems with the injectors not working due to an
> electrical problem or blown fuse.
>
> Air: Slightly press on the accelerator while trying to start. Normally
> the throttle is completely closed and the IAC (Idle Air Control) valve
> adjusts to admit air into the engine. By pressing slightly on the
> accelerator, you are bypassing the IAC valve and allowing air to enter
> the engine.
>
> Combination test: While someone slightly presses on the accelerator
> and turns the key to start, have someone else spray starting fluid
> into the throttle body.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks. I tried spraying either in the intake tube and it didn't
really change it much. It still acts like it wants to fire but won't
start.

Since I posted the first time I also put a light bulb in one of the
injector connectors. I saw the the bulb flicker when the engine was
cranked so it seems like the injectors are getting signal. Saw this
test idea while searching the web.

It ran fine before it started doing this so it must be a complete
system failure somewhere.

If it had a timing belt I would say it had skipped some cogs because
it has that :"wants to crank but doesn't" behavior you sometimes see
when a timing belt gets out of wack and the cam and ignition still
fire but at the wrong time. Trouble is this engine has a chain.

I'm still trying to get the crank position sensor out. The cam one
passed static testing and the ground and power to it on the connector
tested good as well. I'm thinking about swwapping thecrank and cam
sensors just to see if I get a behavior change.

The dealer said they were replaced as part of the recall but the
"allegedly new" crank one is not backwards the way I see a lot of
peole describe it. That change was so you could take the bolt out
before unplugging it. It's a total pia to get the connector off.
Plus the cam one was completely plastic and it looks like the newer
ones have a metal body.

"jamesgangnc" > wrote in message >
>

If it had a timing belt I would say it had skipped some cogs because
it has that :"wants to crank but doesn't" behavior you sometimes see
when a timing belt gets out of wack and the cam and ignition still
fire but at the wrong time. Trouble is this engine has a chain.

*****
Chains can get loose, the tensioner may not be able to take up the
slack, and they can jump some teeth. You need to know exactly
whether your valve timing is right or not. Dont assume it is okay
because it has a chain.

On Jun 17, 1:17*pm, "hls" > wrote:
> "jamesgangnc" > wrote in message >
>
> If it had a timing belt I would say it had skipped some cogs because
> it has that :"wants to crank but doesn't" behavior you sometimes see
> when a timing belt gets out of wack and the cam and ignition still
> fire but at the wrong time. *Trouble is this engine has a chain.
>
> *****
> Chains can get loose, the tensioner may not be able to take up the
> slack, and they can jump some teeth. *You need to know exactly
> whether your valve timing is right or not. * Dont assume it is okay
> because it has a chain.

Chain problems are veyy unusual though. It only has about 80k miles
on it and it was running normally before this.

I still can't find out definitively which position sensor the computer
uses to control the injectors and spark.

"jamesgangnc" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 17, 1:17 pm, "hls" > wrote:
> "jamesgangnc" > wrote in message >
>
> If it had a timing belt I would say it had skipped some cogs because
> it has that :"wants to crank but doesn't" behavior you sometimes see
> when a timing belt gets out of wack and the cam and ignition still
> fire but at the wrong time. Trouble is this engine has a chain.
>
> *****
> Chains can get loose, the tensioner may not be able to take up the
> slack, and they can jump some teeth. You need to know exactly
> whether your valve timing is right or not. Dont assume it is okay
> because it has a chain.

Chain problems are veyy unusual though. It only has about 80k miles
on it and it was running normally before this.

I still can't find out definitively which position sensor the computer
uses to control the injectors and spark.
*******
I believe access to a really good shop manual for this setup would help
you. If you dont want to buy one, maybe your local library has one.

Ditto not troubleshooting by replacing parts. This usually ends up
with the owner spending a heck of a lot of money before he takes
the car back to a mechanic.

"hls" > wrote in
news
>
> "jamesgangnc" > wrote in message
> news:8f49202b-6f8d-4501-b113-
...
> On Jun 17, 1:17 pm, "hls" > wrote:
>> "jamesgangnc" > wrote in message >
>>
>> If it had a timing belt I would say it had skipped some cogs because
>> it has that :"wants to crank but doesn't" behavior you sometimes see
>> when a timing belt gets out of wack and the cam and ignition still
>> fire but at the wrong time. Trouble is this engine has a chain.
>>
>> *****
>> Chains can get loose, the tensioner may not be able to take up the
>> slack, and they can jump some teeth. You need to know exactly
>> whether your valve timing is right or not. Dont assume it is okay
>> because it has a chain.
>
> Chain problems are veyy unusual though. It only has about 80k miles
> on it and it was running normally before this.
>
> I still can't find out definitively which position sensor the computer
> uses to control the injectors and spark.
> *******
> I believe access to a really good shop manual for this setup would help
> you. If you dont want to buy one, maybe your local library has one.
>
> Ditto not troubleshooting by replacing parts. This usually ends up
> with the owner spending a heck of a lot of money before he takes
> the car back to a mechanic.
>
>
>
did you check the bump switch in the trunk?? had that happen lots of
times, doesn`t take much of a bump to set it off. KB

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
> wrote:

>On Jun 17, 8:55Â*am, "Bill" > wrote:
>> "jamesgangnc" > wrote in message
>>

>
>It ran fine before it started doing this so it must be a complete
>system failure somewhere.
>

With all the various sensors on newer cars, you need good diagnostic
tools. and the ability to use and understand them..
Only time I had a car that suddenly wouldn't start it was a bad ECU.
But it wasn't "trying" to fire. Just cranking.
At that time I was working long hours and had a good mech for the car.
He found the problem real fast and replaced the ECU.
Cost me a couple hundred, but well worth it.
I would have had no idea where to start.
Even now, if it's an engine management electrical problem not revealed
by OBD II, I would be lost in the forest.
Some failures are documented for some cars, and throwing the part at
it has a good chance of success.
I looked around on the net for that just a bit and quit, because I saw
2.5's and 3.5's and you didn't say which it was.
When I buy my next car and go beyond my current '97 I'm going to look
hard at diagnostic scanning software.
You might be better off in time and money towing that car to a good
mech with diagnostic software.
One thing about that problem, you know the problem is fixed just by
driving it away.

--Vic

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:24:07 -0500, Vic Smith
> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
> wrote:
>
>>On Jun 17, 8:55Â*am, "Bill" > wrote:
>>> "jamesgangnc" > wrote in message
>>>
>
>>
>>It ran fine before it started doing this so it must be a complete
>>system failure somewhere.
>>
>

Leaking fuel pressure regulators sometimes cause no-start.
Sometimes just cause rich running.
And sometimes cause hydo-lock.
Surprisingly, you probably won't even smell gas unless you pull a plug
or vacuum hose.
All 3 happened to my kid's or his girlfriend's cars.
But the no-start was also the hydo-lock, on a V-8 Caddie.
The rich running, hard-starting, bad idle were a Corsica 3.1 and a
Dodge Dynasty.
Just throwing that out there.
I can see this causing no start on some engines, but I think you said
you pulled plugs.
BTW, if you get a bad fuel regulator hydo-lock, don't pull the plugs
and crank - unless you live dangerously and have a fire extinguisher
handy.

--Vic

On 06/16/2011 10:24 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
> I'm working on my buddy's 2002 Altima. It cranks and acts like it's
> trying to start but doesn't start. He let triple-a look at it first
> and they found the valve cover gasket was leaking and one of the coils
> was a bit oily. That didn't make much sense to me as far as causing
> it not to start. They wanted to replace the gasket, the oily coil and
> the plugs. Trouble is one of the plugs got installed too tight and
> won't come out. Triple a said they have to get it out and wanted
> permission to try till either it came out or broke. that wsa the only
> way they would fix it. That would end up costing a fortune. So we
> got the car back from them. The other plugs looked ok so I didn't
> really think it was that. He had some old plugs. So we laid all
> four coils with plugs in them on metal and cranked the car. I got
> good fat spark on each plug. Next I pulled the fuel line at the
> engine and put a pressure guage on it. I only have an old-school one
> that does vacuum one way and pressure the other with the pressure just
> reading 10psi. (The only engine I work on these days is the chevy 350
> in my boat.) But it had no needle stop so I gave it a shot anyway.
> The gauge completely whipped way past the 10psi mark and fuel started
> spraying out around where I had the hose connected to the gauge. So
> it seems like it's got plenty of fuel pressure. It's a single line
> fuel system with no return. The filter, pump, and regulator all in
> one unit in the tank. So fuel supply seems to not be the problem.
>
> We did the obd2 thing, borrowed a scanner form autozone. We got two
> p0300 random multiple misfires and one p0113 intake air temp sensor
> circuit high. I wouldn't think the intake air temp sensor would keep
> it from starting at all.

why do you think that? fix the sensor, clear the code and try again.


> What I see on the net about the air temp
> sensor says that often there will be no symptoms other than the check
> engine light.

many cars have "limp home", but air temp is an essential part of the air
density calculation, and thus injection duration. it may be causing
insufficient fuel to start the engine.


>
> I see on the net the engine has had issues with the crank and cam
> posiiton sensors. There was a recall and they got replaced on this
> one quite a few years ago. Best prices I have seen on those is around
> $25 or $30 each. I hate to troubleshoot by replacing parts and my
> buddy is between jobs right now as well. Is there anyway to test
> those sonsors other than replacing them?

do you have access to a scope?


> Anyone know which sensor
> really controls the spark timing?

the crank position sensor, not cam. and technically, it's the computer
that "controls" timing - the sensor just gives the input from which the
computer can do its math.


> And is there anything else I ought
> to be looking at that might be our problem? tia


--
nomina rutrum rutrum