That Damn Nut

jim beam > wrote in
t:

> On 06/07/2011 07:18 PM, Tegger wrote:
>> Tim > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Any tricks to removing the big nut holding on a front wheel drive
>>> wheel? This is a 99 Honda Civic. The nut is the type that has an
>>> edge peened into a keyway-looking slot. Is there any way to ease
>>> that peened bit out of the slot, or do you just need a great big
>>> breaker bar and lots and lots of torque to get it all apart?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That peened bit is called a "stake". Just use a punch or screwdriver
>> to bend the metal out of the way so you can turn the nut. The metal
>> is soft in the region of the stake.
>
> if it's been peened properly, it's hard to push back out and you risk
> breaking a punch tip. you can also damage the driveshaft slot.



I have never seen that happen. The metal of the nut's flange is soft and
easy to bend. I have seen the staked area split at one edge when re-staked,
but never damage to a tool. Although a tool can damage the groove in the CV
joint nose, that damage is well outside of any area that accepts load, so
groove-damage is highly unlikely to go much further than cosmetics.

If the nut-flange is so soft that you can just buzz through the stake with
an impact wrench, then it's also soft enough to hammer straight with a
punch.



> better to just turn the nut - the resistance caused by the peen is
> trivial in comparison to the nut tension.



But that tears the stake, and will /definitely/ leave you with an un-
reusable nut.



>
>
>>
>> It's not a great idea to re-use the nut, so you should buy a new one
>> before you start: that nut has a single long thread running its
>> length, so you can't just turn it 180 degrees to get a new stake
>> surface.
>
> to put this another way, it's a coarse thread, and it ends up in the
> same position as before -



True, but it's not strictly a matter of coarse- or fine-thread per se; more
precisely it's a matter of how many individual grooves form the thread.

I just went through a bunch of random fasteners I have that range from fine
to coarse in different diameters, and they're ALL single-groove. That means
ALL of them need to start (and will finish) in the same orientation each
time they are removed and replaced.



> re-peening the same spot is unlikely to work
> securely. best to replace.
>
> if you're stuck and /have/ to re-use, there is a kludge - place the
> nut face down on a sharpening stone [or even flat concrete], and,
> rotating every dozen or so strokes, "polish" the nut face. this
> removes a little material and allows it to set in a different
> position. provided this new position is a good distance from the
> previously peened skirt of the nut, it can be safely re-peened.
> replacing the nut is much better though - among other things, it
> guaranteed to be square.



For a critical fastener like this, I'd rather trust re-using the original
stake area than trying to mill it down by hand and ending up with an off-
square face. If you drive the stake area out of the groove carefully, you
can restake it successfully.

A new nut is best, though.


>
>
>>
>> As for getting the nut off, you'll probably find yourself at wit's
>> end with frustration trying to grunt it off with a breaker bar,
>
> indeed - some of them are seized pretty bad. but a 3' 3/4" breaker
> will do it. if you weigh enough!
>
>
>> so go to an
>> industrial supply house and rent an electric impact wrench. The nut
>> will be off in seconds with an impact wrench.
>
> 1/2" electric impacts seldom go above 300/350 ft.lbs torque. these
> things can be stuck real bad and don't shift until ~500 ft.lbs or so.



You may have seen that, but I have not. My 350# DeWalt makes short work of
all axle nuts, even ones with ten-years worth of heavy rust on them..





--
Tegger

On 06/08/2011 03:08 PM, Victor R wrote:
> Hachiroku ???? wrote:
>
>>>> Any tricks to removing the big nut holding on a front wheel drive wheel?
>>
>>
>> That's what I do. The last one I had to use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut
>> the 'dimple' out (otherwise known as a "stake")
>
> Side question, is it worthwhile to replace the boots on axles once they
> start flinging grease? Or just wait for the inevitable then replace the
> unit(s) with aftermarket axles?

you'll never get an aftermarket axle of the quality of oem honda. if
the joint hasn't already been gritted and destroyed, and you're not just
after a quick fix, i would definitely re-boot it. it'll take a little
bit of work, but honda cv joints last hundreds of thousands of miles if
maintained in this way. aftermarket, you're lucky if some of them last 30k

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122859
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122861
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122865
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122867
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4877171985

there are a number of how-to's on you-tube, and this topic has been
discussed here in the not too distant past.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 06/08/2011 04:36 PM, Tegger wrote:
> jim > wrote in
> t:
>
>> On 06/07/2011 07:18 PM, Tegger wrote:
>>> Tim > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Any tricks to removing the big nut holding on a front wheel drive
>>>> wheel? This is a 99 Honda Civic. The nut is the type that has an
>>>> edge peened into a keyway-looking slot. Is there any way to ease
>>>> that peened bit out of the slot, or do you just need a great big
>>>> breaker bar and lots and lots of torque to get it all apart?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That peened bit is called a "stake". Just use a punch or screwdriver
>>> to bend the metal out of the way so you can turn the nut. The metal
>>> is soft in the region of the stake.
>>
>> if it's been peened properly, it's hard to push back out and you risk
>> breaking a punch tip. you can also damage the driveshaft slot.
>
>
>
> I have never seen that happen. The metal of the nut's flange is soft and
> easy to bend. I have seen the staked area split at one edge when re-staked,
> but never damage to a tool. Although a tool can damage the groove in the CV
> joint nose, that damage is well outside of any area that accepts load, so
> groove-damage is highly unlikely to go much further than cosmetics.
>
> If the nut-flange is so soft that you can just buzz through the stake with
> an impact wrench, then it's also soft enough to hammer straight with a
> punch.

it's not "that" soft. you need to peen it with a hammer pretty hard to
get it in the groove. if it's been done right, trying to get underneath
that with a fine pointed punch, especially because the groove is curved,
can break the punch.


>
>
>
>> better to just turn the nut - the resistance caused by the peen is
>> trivial in comparison to the nut tension.
>
>
>
> But that tears the stake,

not always. i have some i can post pics of if you'd like.


> and will /definitely/ leave you with an un-
> reusable nut.

you can re-use it if the nut tightens to a different location on the skirt.


>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> It's not a great idea to re-use the nut, so you should buy a new one
>>> before you start: that nut has a single long thread running its
>>> length, so you can't just turn it 180 degrees to get a new stake
>>> surface.
>>
>> to put this another way, it's a coarse thread, and it ends up in the
>> same position as before -
>
>
>
> True, but it's not strictly a matter of coarse- or fine-thread per se; more
> precisely it's a matter of how many individual grooves form the thread.

there are /very/ few fasteners that use more than one. coarseness
determines the angular window you get with any given torque.


>
> I just went through a bunch of random fasteners I have that range from fine
> to coarse in different diameters, and they're ALL single-groove.

indeed.


> That means
> ALL of them need to start (and will finish) in the same orientation each
> time they are removed and replaced.

again, you can get a lot of angular variation on a fine thread,
proportionately less for coarse. if you have a 10° window on a 1.5mm
pitch thread, that would be nearly 20° on a 0.8mm pitch thread for the
same torque range.


>
>
>
>> re-peening the same spot is unlikely to work
>> securely. best to replace.
>>
>> if you're stuck and /have/ to re-use, there is a kludge - place the
>> nut face down on a sharpening stone [or even flat concrete], and,
>> rotating every dozen or so strokes, "polish" the nut face. this
>> removes a little material and allows it to set in a different
>> position. provided this new position is a good distance from the
>> previously peened skirt of the nut, it can be safely re-peened.
>> replacing the nut is much better though - among other things, it
>> guaranteed to be square.
>
>
>
> For a critical fastener like this, I'd rather trust re-using the original
> stake area than trying to mill it down by hand and ending up with an off-
> square face. If you drive the stake area out of the groove carefully, you
> can restake it successfully.

that is absolutely the thing NOT to do. the skirt is not very ductile.
to re-peen in the same spot makes that region brittle and prone to
easy fracture or tearing. ONLY re-use a nut if it can be staked at a
completely different point on the skirt.


>
> A new nut is best, though.

indeed.


>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As for getting the nut off, you'll probably find yourself at wit's
>>> end with frustration trying to grunt it off with a breaker bar,
>>
>> indeed - some of them are seized pretty bad. but a 3' 3/4" breaker
>> will do it. if you weigh enough!
>>
>>
>>> so go to an
>>> industrial supply house and rent an electric impact wrench. The nut
>>> will be off in seconds with an impact wrench.
>>
>> 1/2" electric impacts seldom go above 300/350 ft.lbs torque. these
>> things can be stuck real bad and don't shift until ~500 ft.lbs or so.
>
>
>
> You may have seen that, but I have not. My 350# DeWalt makes short work of
> all axle nuts, even ones with ten-years worth of heavy rust on them..

indeed i have. i ended up driving one to my local honda shop and they
buzzed it for nearly a minute with air before it broke loose. colorful
language broke the air too.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 06/08/2011 09:33 PM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:20:19 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>
>> On 06/08/2011 03:08 PM, Victor R wrote:
>>> Hachiroku ???? wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Any tricks to removing the big nut holding on a front wheel drive wheel?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's what I do. The last one I had to use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut
>>>> the 'dimple' out (otherwise known as a "stake")
>>>
>>> Side question, is it worthwhile to replace the boots on axles once they
>>> start flinging grease? Or just wait for the inevitable then replace the
>>> unit(s) with aftermarket axles?
>>
>> you'll never get an aftermarket axle of the quality of oem honda. if
>> the joint hasn't already been gritted and destroyed, and you're not just
>> after a quick fix, i would definitely re-boot it. it'll take a little
>> bit of work, but honda cv joints last hundreds of thousands of miles if
>> maintained in this way. aftermarket, you're lucky if some of them last 30k
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122859
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122861
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122865
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122867
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4877171985
>>
>> there are a number of how-to's on you-tube, and this topic has been
>> discussed here in the not too distant past.
>
>
> You lost me after a while. What kind of Honda uses the spoked wheel?

the lightweight one?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:20:19 -0700, jim beam wrote:

> On 06/08/2011 03:08 PM, Victor R wrote:
>> Hachiroku ???? wrote:
>>
>>>>> Any tricks to removing the big nut holding on a front wheel drive wheel?
>>>
>>>
>>> That's what I do. The last one I had to use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut
>>> the 'dimple' out (otherwise known as a "stake")
>>
>> Side question, is it worthwhile to replace the boots on axles once they
>> start flinging grease? Or just wait for the inevitable then replace the
>> unit(s) with aftermarket axles?
>
> you'll never get an aftermarket axle of the quality of oem honda. if
> the joint hasn't already been gritted and destroyed, and you're not just
> after a quick fix, i would definitely re-boot it. it'll take a little
> bit of work, but honda cv joints last hundreds of thousands of miles if
> maintained in this way. aftermarket, you're lucky if some of them last 30k
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122859
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122861
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122865
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122867
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4877171985
>
> there are a number of how-to's on you-tube, and this topic has been
> discussed here in the not too distant past.


You lost me after a while. What kind of Honda uses the spoked wheel?

On 06/09/2011 09:55 AM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 21:11:20 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>
>> On 06/08/2011 09:33 PM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote:
>>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:20:19 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/08/2011 03:08 PM, Victor R wrote:
>>>>> Hachiroku ???? wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any tricks to removing the big nut holding on a front wheel drive wheel?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's what I do. The last one I had to use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut
>>>>>> the 'dimple' out (otherwise known as a "stake")
>>>>>
>>>>> Side question, is it worthwhile to replace the boots on axles once they
>>>>> start flinging grease? Or just wait for the inevitable then replace the
>>>>> unit(s) with aftermarket axles?
>>>>
>>>> you'll never get an aftermarket axle of the quality of oem honda. if
>>>> the joint hasn't already been gritted and destroyed, and you're not just
>>>> after a quick fix, i would definitely re-boot it. it'll take a little
>>>> bit of work, but honda cv joints last hundreds of thousands of miles if
>>>> maintained in this way. aftermarket, you're lucky if some of them last 30k
>>>>
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122859
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122861
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122865
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122867
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4877171985
>>>>
>>>> there are a number of how-to's on you-tube, and this topic has been
>>>> discussed here in the not too distant past.
>>>
>>>
>>> You lost me after a while. What kind of Honda uses the spoked wheel?
>>
>> the lightweight one?
>
>
> That's the one. Unless you have a Honda 90 stuffed away somewhere....

used to. if you're nostalgic, check this out:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/mcy/2426833184.html


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 21:11:20 -0700, jim beam wrote:

> On 06/08/2011 09:33 PM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:20:19 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/08/2011 03:08 PM, Victor R wrote:
>>>> Hachiroku ???? wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Any tricks to removing the big nut holding on a front wheel drive wheel?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I do. The last one I had to use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut
>>>>> the 'dimple' out (otherwise known as a "stake")
>>>>
>>>> Side question, is it worthwhile to replace the boots on axles once they
>>>> start flinging grease? Or just wait for the inevitable then replace the
>>>> unit(s) with aftermarket axles?
>>>
>>> you'll never get an aftermarket axle of the quality of oem honda. if
>>> the joint hasn't already been gritted and destroyed, and you're not just
>>> after a quick fix, i would definitely re-boot it. it'll take a little
>>> bit of work, but honda cv joints last hundreds of thousands of miles if
>>> maintained in this way. aftermarket, you're lucky if some of them last 30k
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122859
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122861
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122865
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2500122867
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4877171985
>>>
>>> there are a number of how-to's on you-tube, and this topic has been
>>> discussed here in the not too distant past.
>>
>>
>> You lost me after a while. What kind of Honda uses the spoked wheel?
>
> the lightweight one?


That's the one. Unless you have a Honda 90 stuffed away somewhere....

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...

>> That's the one. Unless you have a Honda 90 stuffed away somewhere....
>
> used to. if you're nostalgic, check this out:
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/mcy/2426833184.html

That is nice looking. I don't ride motor bikes, but even I'd like to have
that one. Is it a legite post, or yet another Craigslist scam?

Ed

C. E. White wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>
>>> That's the one. Unless you have a Honda 90 stuffed away somewhere....
>> used to. if you're nostalgic, check this out:
>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/mcy/2426833184.html
>
> That is nice looking. I don't ride motor bikes, but even I'd like to have
> that one. Is it a legite post, or yet another Craigslist scam?
>
> Ed
>
>

I had a 50 and a 70 way back when.
Also had a 72 Kawasaki 90 and a Hodaka Combat Wombat.

Moved up a bit since then. Now I ride a 'Wing or the Venture Royal

--
Steve W.

Victor R > wrote in :


>
> Side question, is it worthwhile to replace the boots on axles once
> they start flinging grease? Or just wait for the inevitable then
> replace the unit(s) with aftermarket axles?
>
>


You're supposed to check the boots once in a while so you can replace them
BEFORE they start flinging grease.

Boots take several years to start flinging grease from the first signs of
cracking, so you have LOTS of time to respond to this issue.


--
Tegger