Unwanted Complexity

I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
and do the annual Florida trip again. That's about 3K miles total..
Rocker panels starting to rust through.
Anyway, at the dealer to pick up some parts, I took a look at the
Cruze. No drive, just showroom.
I just told the story here of the airbag exploding on my kid's '95
Bonnevilles.
So what's the first thing the salesman brags about the Cruze?
IT HAS TEN AIRBAGS!!!

I told him I don't want to hear about it.
Then we get in the car and he brags about the key fob, where the key
folds into the remote unit. Pretty small package.
Can't say that impressed me much.
So I'm at the wheel and he turns to ignition only and says press the
button on the wheel.
The display shows all four tires and their pressure.
I told him I don't like that, just adds complexity, I can tell when I
have a low tire by looking at my tires, or feeling it when I drive.
He says, "Ah, old school guy, eh?"
Anyway, we didn't get much farther.
He mentioned GPS, On-Star, the sound system.
Not interested.
I did note to him that what he pointed out to be the radio/sound
system looked like it was part of the dash and I wouldn't be able to
replace it with an aftermarket.
He said, "Why would you want to replace it? It does everything!"
Showed me the engine and pointed out the hood insulation and what
looked like a modernistically formed baffle down low.
Said the car is as quiet as a Cadillac.
I liked the under hood part.
But I was thinking of the 10 airbags and all the gizmos that can go
bad and cost me a lot of money.
Maybe I'm wrong.
But I'll probably buy a new car within a few years, maybe a Cruze,
maybe an Elantra, maybe a Malibu.
And I'm scared.

--Vic

Vic Smith > wrote in
:

> I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
> 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
> not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
> and do the annual Florida trip again. That's about 3K miles total..
> Rocker panels starting to rust through.
> Anyway, at the dealer to pick up some parts, I took a look at the
> Cruze. No drive, just showroom.
> I just told the story here of the airbag exploding on my kid's '95
> Bonnevilles.
> So what's the first thing the salesman brags about the Cruze?
> IT HAS TEN AIRBAGS!!!



At least two of them are mandated by federal law. The others are
mandated by the modern public's obsession with "safety". Buyers believe
the more airbags they have, the better, because airbags are "SAFE".
Ignore those big yellow warning-labels that tell you the airbags will
kill you if you don't do things just-so; those airbags are GOOD for you!

And side-impact laws demand those stupidly-thick pillars and tiny
windows, with their resultant lousy visibility.


>
> I told him I don't want to hear about it.
> Then we get in the car and he brags about the key fob, where the key
> folds into the remote unit. Pretty small package.
> Can't say that impressed me much.
> So I'm at the wheel and he turns to ignition only and says press the
> button on the wheel.
> The display shows all four tires and their pressure.
> I told him I don't like that, just adds complexity,



Another federal law, this one fairly recent. All cars are now required
to have some sort of tire-pressure monitoring system.


<snip>


> I liked the under hood part.
> But I was thinking of the 10 airbags and all the gizmos that can go
> bad and cost me a lot of money.



Yup. Add to that the federally-mandated security system, the difficulty
of finding a new car with manual windows and locks (on account of the
security system requirements), and things are not good for the likes of
us.

It's going to get worse, too. The new CAFE regulations are forcing
automakers to produce cars with small, complex, and expensive engines
that have turbos, direct-injection, and other workarounds for emissions
laws and the engines' lack of swept-volume.



> Maybe I'm wrong.
> But I'll probably buy a new car within a few years, maybe a Cruze,
> maybe an Elantra, maybe a Malibu.
> And I'm scared.
>


My '91 Integra is getting near the end of its economically-useful life,
and I absolutely /hate/ what's on the market these days. I'm at a loss
for what to do. I'm hoping to find something late-'60s that's good
enough to be a daily driver in the Rust Belt. '67 Chevelle 2-door wagon?



--
Tegger

Tegger wrote:
> Vic Smith > wrote in
> :
>
>> I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
>> 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
>> not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
>> and do the annual Florida trip again. That's about 3K miles total..
>> Rocker panels starting to rust through.
>> Anyway, at the dealer to pick up some parts, I took a look at the
>> Cruze. No drive, just showroom.
>> I just told the story here of the airbag exploding on my kid's '95
>> Bonnevilles.
>> So what's the first thing the salesman brags about the Cruze?
>> IT HAS TEN AIRBAGS!!!
>
>
>
> At least two of them are mandated by federal law. The others are
> mandated by the modern public's obsession with "safety". Buyers believe
> the more airbags they have, the better, because airbags are "SAFE".
> Ignore those big yellow warning-labels that tell you the airbags will
> kill you if you don't do things just-so; those airbags are GOOD for you!
>
> And side-impact laws demand those stupidly-thick pillars and tiny
> windows, with their resultant lousy visibility.
>
>
>> I told him I don't want to hear about it.
>> Then we get in the car and he brags about the key fob, where the key
>> folds into the remote unit. Pretty small package.
>> Can't say that impressed me much.
>> So I'm at the wheel and he turns to ignition only and says press the
>> button on the wheel.
>> The display shows all four tires and their pressure.
>> I told him I don't like that, just adds complexity,
>
>
>
> Another federal law, this one fairly recent. All cars are now required
> to have some sort of tire-pressure monitoring system.
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>> I liked the under hood part.
>> But I was thinking of the 10 airbags and all the gizmos that can go
>> bad and cost me a lot of money.
>
>
>
> Yup. Add to that the federally-mandated security system, the difficulty
> of finding a new car with manual windows and locks (on account of the
> security system requirements), and things are not good for the likes of
> us.
>
> It's going to get worse, too. The new CAFE regulations are forcing
> automakers to produce cars with small, complex, and expensive engines
> that have turbos, direct-injection, and other workarounds for emissions
> laws and the engines' lack of swept-volume.
>
>
>
>> Maybe I'm wrong.
>> But I'll probably buy a new car within a few years, maybe a Cruze,
>> maybe an Elantra, maybe a Malibu.
>> And I'm scared.
>>
>
>
> My '91 Integra is getting near the end of its economically-useful life,
> and I absolutely /hate/ what's on the market these days. I'm at a loss
> for what to do. I'm hoping to find something late-'60s that's good
> enough to be a daily driver in the Rust Belt. '67 Chevelle 2-door wagon?


I just bought (2008) a new 1965 Nova with a 283. Wore out
the last one. Lighter than a Chevelle! No safety, seatbelt
optional, no electronics and chrome bumpers!

We won't run out of good cars in my lifetime. After that
it's someone else's problem.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 05/28/2011 03:38 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
> I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
> 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
> not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
> and do the annual Florida trip again. That's about 3K miles total..
> Rocker panels starting to rust through.
> Anyway, at the dealer to pick up some parts, I took a look at the
> Cruze. No drive, just showroom.
> I just told the story here of the airbag exploding on my kid's '95
> Bonnevilles.
> So what's the first thing the salesman brags about the Cruze?
> IT HAS TEN AIRBAGS!!!
>
> I told him I don't want to hear about it.
> Then we get in the car and he brags about the key fob, where the key
> folds into the remote unit. Pretty small package.
> Can't say that impressed me much.
> So I'm at the wheel and he turns to ignition only and says press the
> button on the wheel.
> The display shows all four tires and their pressure.
> I told him I don't like that, just adds complexity, I can tell when I
> have a low tire by looking at my tires, or feeling it when I drive.
> He says, "Ah, old school guy, eh?"
> Anyway, we didn't get much farther.
> He mentioned GPS, On-Star, the sound system.
> Not interested.
> I did note to him that what he pointed out to be the radio/sound
> system looked like it was part of the dash and I wouldn't be able to
> replace it with an aftermarket.
> He said, "Why would you want to replace it? It does everything!"
> Showed me the engine and pointed out the hood insulation and what
> looked like a modernistically formed baffle down low.
> Said the car is as quiet as a Cadillac.
> I liked the under hood part.
> But I was thinking of the 10 airbags and all the gizmos that can go
> bad and cost me a lot of money.
> Maybe I'm wrong.
> But I'll probably buy a new car within a few years, maybe a Cruze,
> maybe an Elantra, maybe a Malibu.
> And I'm scared.
>
> --Vic

some of this stuff is beneficial, but most of it is a misguided attempt
to raise the bar on imports. and increase vehicle weights so that
modern efficient engines use more gas to lug their 3000-4000 lb vehicles
around and keep the oilcos fat.

in terms of absolute costs, it's frequently cheaper to run an old car
and spend money on maintenance than it is to suck up the depreciation on
a new one. if you can handle the social implications. then you won't
get the complications.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On May 29, 1:38*am, Vic Smith > wrote:
> I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
> 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
> not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
> and do the annual Florida trip again. *That's about 3K miles total..
> Rocker panels starting to rust through.
> Anyway, at the dealer to pick up some parts, I took a look at the
> Cruze. *No drive, just showroom.
> I just told the story here of the airbag exploding on my kid's '95
> Bonnevilles.
> So what's the first thing the salesman brags about the Cruze?
> IT HAS TEN AIRBAGS!!!
>
> I told him I don't want to hear about it.
> Then we get in the car and he brags about the key fob, where the key
> folds into the remote unit. *Pretty small package.
> Can't say that impressed me much.
> So I'm at the wheel and he turns to ignition only and says press the
> button on the wheel.
> The display shows all four tires and their pressure.
> I told him I don't like that, just adds complexity, I can tell when I
> have a low tire by looking at my tires, or feeling it when I drive.
> He says, "Ah, old school guy, eh?"
> Anyway, we didn't get much farther.
> He mentioned GPS, On-Star, the sound system.
> Not interested.
> I did note to him that what he pointed out to be the radio/sound
> system looked like it was part of the dash and I wouldn't be able to
> replace it with an aftermarket.
> He said, *"Why would you want to replace it? *It does everything!"
> Showed me the engine and pointed out the hood insulation and what
> looked like a modernistically formed baffle down low.
> Said the car is as quiet as a Cadillac.
> I liked the under hood part.
> But I was thinking of the 10 airbags and all the gizmos that can go
> bad and cost me a lot of money.
> Maybe I'm wrong.
> But I'll probably buy a new car within a few years, maybe a Cruze,
> maybe an Elantra, maybe a Malibu.
> And I'm scared.
>

Your only recourse as far as new cars are concerned seems to be either
going the course of total minimalism
(barebones compact/subcompact, probably a jap) or euro entry level
luxury hoping
that is was not screwed yet.

Another option is a decade old car.

Midside "family" segment is utterly screwed as you have
just discovered. even bmw 5xx is screwed by electric steering.

I was eyeing jeep compass lately until discovering that off road group
is coupled
to cvt and can't be had with a manual.

On 5/28/2011 12:38 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
> I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
> 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
> not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
> and do the annual Florida trip again. That's about 3K miles total..

You're in luck. When the electric car takes over, complexity will drop
way down. No need to replace the intake gasket cause there won't be any
intake. Unfortunately, there will still probably be a lot of air-bags
and my guess is that we won't be using keys to start cars anymore.

> Rocker panels starting to rust through.
> Anyway, at the dealer to pick up some parts, I took a look at the
> Cruze. No drive, just showroom.
> I just told the story here of the airbag exploding on my kid's '95
> Bonnevilles.
> So what's the first thing the salesman brags about the Cruze?
> IT HAS TEN AIRBAGS!!!
>
> I told him I don't want to hear about it.
> Then we get in the car and he brags about the key fob, where the key
> folds into the remote unit. Pretty small package.
> Can't say that impressed me much.
> So I'm at the wheel and he turns to ignition only and says press the
> button on the wheel.
> The display shows all four tires and their pressure.
> I told him I don't like that, just adds complexity, I can tell when I
> have a low tire by looking at my tires, or feeling it when I drive.
> He says, "Ah, old school guy, eh?"
> Anyway, we didn't get much farther.
> He mentioned GPS, On-Star, the sound system.
> Not interested.
> I did note to him that what he pointed out to be the radio/sound
> system looked like it was part of the dash and I wouldn't be able to
> replace it with an aftermarket.
> He said, "Why would you want to replace it? It does everything!"
> Showed me the engine and pointed out the hood insulation and what
> looked like a modernistically formed baffle down low.
> Said the car is as quiet as a Cadillac.
> I liked the under hood part.
> But I was thinking of the 10 airbags and all the gizmos that can go
> bad and cost me a lot of money.
> Maybe I'm wrong.
> But I'll probably buy a new car within a few years, maybe a Cruze,
> maybe an Elantra, maybe a Malibu.
> And I'm scared.
>
> --Vic

AD > wrote:
>
>Your only recourse as far as new cars are concerned seems to be either
>going the course of total minimalism
>(barebones compact/subcompact, probably a jap) or euro entry level
>luxury hoping
>that is was not screwed yet.

Unfortunately the euro entry-level luxury cars available in the US are
pretty over the top as well. I looked at the Mercedes C class recently,
since it's about the only Mercedes available with a manual. It comes
with a million "standard options" that cannot be removed. In Europe, you
can purchase it without those options, but not in the US.

BMW 128 is even worse.

>Another option is a decade old car.

I'm driving a 40-year-old BMW to work every day and while BMW still has
parts available for it, miraculously, there is a limit to how long it is
going to last.

>Midside "family" segment is utterly screwed as you have
>just discovered. even bmw 5xx is screwed by electric steering.

See...the current BMW 5-series is just gargantuan. I would call that bigger
than midsize, personally. Maybe that's part of my issue.

>I was eyeing jeep compass lately until discovering that off road group
>is coupled
>to cvt and can't be had with a manual.

The CVT isn't a bad thing... I would actually love to have a manually
adjustable CVT! That would only involve adding one control and some software!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On May 31, 4:17*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> AD > wrote:
>
> >Your only recourse as far as new cars are concerned seems to be either
> >going the course of total minimalism
> >(barebones compact/subcompact, probably a jap) or euro entry level
> >luxury hoping
> >that is was not screwed yet.
>
> Unfortunately the euro entry-level luxury cars available in the US are
> pretty over the top as well. *I looked at the Mercedes C class recently,
> since it's about the only Mercedes available with a manual. *It comes
> with a million "standard options" that cannot be removed. *In Europe, you
> can purchase it without those options, but not in the US.
>
Yeah, last time I checked porsche 911 on carsdirect
had a LOT of delete options. Some at no charge, some were $$.

But don't kid yourself: europarliament has a lot of retarded laws
affecting
carmaking, just in a way different from US.

I could not imagine US lawmakers getting away with mandating carmakers
into mandating ESP sold outside some expensive bundles just because
some of them have perception that it's a safety enhacing feature.

This would be a fun area for car journalists to explo
"How legislation ****ed up automotive industry in the last 4 decades"

> BMW 128 is even worse.

Yep, you don't even get i116/118/120 four bangers let alone 120d
which make a lot of sense in that smaller 3xx

bmw of the usa does not want to break $30k barrier downward into mini
territory I guess.
Part of the brand image preservation program (TM).

Speaking of which: is basic cooper or cooper S bare enough for your
tastes
or you share my aversion for fwd?

> >Another option is a decade old car.
>
> I'm driving a 40-year-old BMW to work every day and while BMW still has
> parts available for it, miraculously, there is a limit to how long it is
> going to last.
>
> >Midside "family" segment is utterly screwed as you have
> >just discovered. even bmw 5xx is screwed by electric steering.
>
> See...the current BMW 5-series is just gargantuan. *I would call that bigger
> than midsize, personally. *Maybe that's part of my issue.

it's fullsize, had been for a long time I suspect.
Any problems with bmw bread and butter 3xx? last time I checked it was
not
screwed up in a major way with options overload

Childseats are problematic in compacts: kid legs touch the backs of
front seats.
Not a problem if you are done reproducing (see cooper above)

> >I was eyeing jeep compass lately until discovering that off road group
> >is coupled
> >to cvt and can't be had with a manual.
>
> The CVT isn't a bad thing... *I would actually love to have a manually
> adjustable CVT! *That would only involve adding one control and some software!

If I were in the states and was married at the time, thusly not caring
about
chickmobile perception, I'd given it a thought along with the
forrester.

being where I am now I went for 2003 A4 1.8T quattro avant shipping
somewhere from princeton area.
I guess I'm not contributing to "save the manuals" campaign run by car
and driver :-]

On May 31, 2:26*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
> On 5/28/2011 12:38 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
>
> > I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
> > 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
> > not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
> > and do the annual Florida trip again. *That's about 3K miles total..
>
> You're in luck. When the electric car takes over, complexity will drop
> way down. No need to replace the intake gasket cause there won't be any
> intake. Unfortunately, there will still probably be a lot of air-bags
> and my guess is that we won't be using keys to start cars anymore.
>
I knew a guy who parked his 600 V12 series near a TV station and did
not bother to
bring the physical key. Well, TV overpowered his remote entry fob.

I vote for simpler low tech solutions any day.

AD > wrote:
>On May 31, 4:17=A0pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>bmw of the usa does not want to break $30k barrier downward into mini
>territory I guess.
>Part of the brand image preservation program (TM).
>
>Speaking of which: is basic cooper or cooper S bare enough for your
>tastes
>or you share my aversion for fwd?

Cooper S is right out. FWD, no spare tire. The basic model I might be able
to live with. It handles amazingly well for FWD although I don't think I
would be able to change a clutch. Changing the clutch on the 2002 is about
two hour's work in the driveway with some 2X4s to lower the transmission.
And a spare gaibo since I have wrecked one every time I have dropped the thing.

>> See...the current BMW 5-series is just gargantuan. =A0I would call that b=
>igger
>> than midsize, personally. =A0Maybe that's part of my issue.
>
>it's fullsize, had been for a long time I suspect.
>Any problems with bmw bread and butter 3xx? last time I checked it was
>not
>screwed up in a major way with options overload

I think that's probably where I'm going to be going. Still lots of junk
on it.

>Childseats are problematic in compacts: kid legs touch the backs of
>front seats.
>Not a problem if you are done reproducing (see cooper above)

I have been avoiding reproduction. As a child I remember sitting between
my parents on the parking brake of the MGB on long drives. So while I think
child seats are a good idea, I do find the current obsession with safety to
be a little over the top.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."