Yes, there is a difference between American and Japanese cars

On 06/21/2011 09:33 AM, Brent wrote:
> On 2011-06-21, > wrote:
>> > wrote in news:itp8jc$ss9$2@dont-
>> email.me:
>>
>>> On 2011-06-21, larry moe 'n > wrote:
>>>
>>>> He also fails to explain how Chrysler, Ford, or GM would have handled
>>>> a situation of this magnitude. Toyota paid dealers to work 24 hours a
>>>> day on the "problem", and the head of one large DC-Virgina dealer of
>>>> several brands said none of the other manufacturers has ever taken
>>>> problems as seriously.
>>>
>>> Because that stuff is done quietly.
>
>> Long before that dumb cop in San Diego died, Toyota did discover a problem
>> with electronic gas-pedal assemblies made in Canada. A running change was
>> implemented, the revised assemblies having a white dot painted on one side
>> of the the housing to indicate the presence of the updated hardware.
>> Running changes are done /all/ the time in the auto industry, and this was
>> just one of many.
>
> They are common in every industry. I have been dealing with Japanese
> companies for many years, it's a different engineering/manufacturing
> culture. Changes are done, even internally to the same company, quietly.
>
>>> If GM did it there would be a TV
>>> commerical making sure everyone knew they did.
>
>> Toyota never did that because it was a routine product revision, of the
>> sort that are done all the time, even to this very second. And because no
>> crashes or other serious problems had ever happened to any customers' cars.
>
> You seem to be intentionally missing my point. I am not faulting toyota,
> I am describing cultural differences. What Toyota did works fine in
> Japan. In the US the irrational ignorant bedwetters that have been
> driving the culture and media for the last 30 years or so don't like
> that. They don't care and don't understand quiet fixes. They don't
> understand product development and manufacturing nor are they going to
> or even try to. The media fans the flames because the culture eats it
> up... this 'unsafe at any speed' rolling over SUV nonsense that just
> keeps growing like a cancer in the society. They want fixes and they
> want them now. The government exploits this over and over again... hell
> their fingerprints are all over creating the problems so that they can
> offer the solutions. "Never waste a crisis" is a now famous quote too.

pretty accurate assessment, though the exploder rollover thing was far
bigger than the media made out. in that case, the fingerprints were all
over the cover-up - but your principle of being meddlesome is still the
same.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Jun 20, 6:55*pm, Brent > wrote:
> On 2011-06-21, Tegger > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote innews:1500-4DFFB89B-14150@storefull-
> > 3171.bay.webtv.net:
>
> >>http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309380
>
> >> I prefer American, American Made as much as possible.
> >> cuhulin
>
> > Excerpt:
> > "The manifest ineptness on the part of Toyota in dealing with the
> > unintended acceleration crisis..."
>
> > Lutz's comment is completely unfair. What he fails to realize is that it's
> > impossible to reason with a lynch mob.
>
> > And considering that zero (0) people crashed, died, or were injured on
> > account of "unintended acceleration" caused by anything Toyota did or did
> > not do, Toyota was /definitely/ lynched. Even the US government joined the
> > lynch mob, with no apologies after the truth came out.
>
> > I generally like Lutz's outspokenness, but I'm disappointed in him with his
> > comments in that article.
>
> Actually you picked the one comment that was pretty spot on. The others
> were rather wrong, but no that one.
>
> Japanese companies don't understand a particular irrationality of
> americans. Americans by and large expect something to be done
> immediately.. they don't care about details such as if it fixes the
> problem or not... or even if makes things worse, they want something
> done. This is why we have the TSA, tire pressure monitors, countless
> government programs and agencies, tons of regulation, various wars in
> progress, and so on... because people want something 'done about it' and
> the US government takes full advantage. Essentially americans want to
> see a fix, no matter how slip shod or more damaging than the original
> problem immediately. That is if the attempt to cover up the problem
> failed.
>
> Japanese culture on the other hand tends to cause people to deny there
> is a problem in the first place and then quietly fix it hoping nobody
> will notice. The fix will generally be a reasonable step or
> kludge that actually does at the very least make things better. Even
> when it doesn't things don't usually get worse and nobody seems to use
> it as a chance to expand their power. There is a sense of shame there
> was an error or problem in the first place.
>

The Japanese are very concerned with saving face - theirs, and the
people they deal with. They don't like to play the American zero-sum
game that we so love. Minimizing problems and enduring difficulties is
also a Japanese trait. Americans would treat a nuke plant meltdown way
differently I think! That's the breaks. :-)

> I've seen this time and time again through my career (I deal with
> people world wide and have grown an understanding of the various
> cultures) and the way the whole toyota thing played out especially with
> the government getting involved was a classic clash of how the two
> cultures operate.

"Tegger" > wrote in message >
> I generally like Lutz's outspokenness, but I'm disappointed in him with
> his
> comments in that article.
>
> --
> Tegger

Lutz was one of the first who admitted that GM had sold "dog**** labeled
as ice cream. "
He knew their products were and have been, crap, for many years.

On 06/21/2011 03:37 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Jun 20, 6:55�pm, > wrote:
>> On 2011-06-21, > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> wrote innews:1500-4DFFB89B-14150@storefull-
>>> 3171.bay.webtv.net:
>>
>>>> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309380
>>
>>>> I prefer American, American Made as much as possible.
>>>> cuhulin
>>
>>> Excerpt:
>>> "The manifest ineptness on the part of Toyota in dealing with the
>>> unintended acceleration crisis..."
>>
>>> Lutz's comment is completely unfair. What he fails to realize is that it's
>>> impossible to reason with a lynch mob.
>>
>>> And considering that zero (0) people crashed, died, or were injured on
>>> account of "unintended acceleration" caused by anything Toyota did or did
>>> not do, Toyota was /definitely/ lynched. Even the US government joined the
>>> lynch mob, with no apologies after the truth came out.
>>
>>> I generally like Lutz's outspokenness, but I'm disappointed in him with his
>>> comments in that article.
>>
>> Actually you picked the one comment that was pretty spot on. The others
>> were rather wrong, but no that one.
>>
>> Japanese companies don't understand a particular irrationality of
>> americans. Americans by and large expect something to be done
>> immediately.. they don't care about details such as if it fixes the
>> problem or not... or even if makes things worse, they want something
>> done. This is why we have the TSA, tire pressure monitors, countless
>> government programs and agencies, tons of regulation, various wars in
>> progress, and so on... because people want something 'done about it' and
>> the US government takes full advantage. Essentially americans want to
>> see a fix, no matter how slip shod or more damaging than the original
>> problem immediately. That is if the attempt to cover up the problem
>> failed.
>>
>> Japanese culture on the other hand tends to cause people to deny there
>> is a problem in the first place and then quietly fix it hoping nobody
>> will notice. The fix will generally be a reasonable step or
>> kludge that actually does at the very least make things better. Even
>> when it doesn't things don't usually get worse and nobody seems to use
>> it as a chance to expand their power. There is a sense of shame there
>> was an error or problem in the first place.
>>
>
> The Japanese are very concerned with saving face - theirs, and the
> people they deal with. They don't like to play the American zero-sum
> game that we so love. Minimizing problems and enduring difficulties is
> also a Japanese trait. Americans would treat a nuke plant meltdown way
> differently I think!

yeah, everyone would high tail it out of there - every man for himself.


> That's the breaks. :-)
>
>> I've seen this time and time again through my career (I deal with
>> people world wide and have grown an understanding of the various
>> cultures) and the way the whole toyota thing played out especially with
>> the government getting involved was a classic clash of how the two
>> cultures operate.
>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Jun 20, 5:16*pm, wrote:
> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309380
>
> I prefer American, American Made as much as possible.
> cuhulin

We have a Ford part in Ford packaging at my work and it says "made in
Japan".. Who the hell knows what is made where anymore??

The only thing you can prove is where it is assembled.

Chas

On 06/22/2011 02:54 AM, m6onz5a wrote:
> On Jun 20, 5:16�pm, wrote:
>> http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309380
>>
>> I prefer American, American Made as much as possible.
>> cuhulin
>
> We have a Ford part in Ford packaging at my work and it says "made in
> Japan".. Who the hell knows what is made where anymore??
>
> The only thing you can prove is where it is assembled.
>
> Chas


it's absurd - japanese cars made in usa with usa components have to be
classified as "imports", but "domestics" made with chinese glass, wire
harnesses, electronics, seats/upholstery, brakes, clutches, bearings,
drive shafts, springs, shocks and engine components don't.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
> On 06/21/2011 05:58 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:54:26 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> San Fran bay eyes only see what they can see.
>>>> Here's the numbers for May,
>>>> http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
>>>
>>> i know the reported sales figures, but truthfully, have you actually
>>> seen one? i haven't, and not just for the bay area, but sacramento,
>>> and all the way up to southern oregon. not one. i even asked a friend
>>> in los angeles [he'd happened to have heard the same npr report], and he
>>> hasn't seen one either. it's not like l.a. doesn't have many cars.
>>>
>>
>> Well, I sat in one a couple weeks ago at the dealership when I was
>> picking up parts for my Lumina.
>> The Cruze has 10 air bags. Other than that it has the Ecotec engine.
>> Don't remember anything else, even much of what it looked like.
>> It's new, so it'll take a while for the numbers to build.
>
> well, if you believe the propaganda, the numbers have already "built".
>
> and you may have sat in one, but you didn't buy one and are not driving
> one. and apparently neither is anyone else.
>
>
>> Since I retired I hardly drive except for my annual trek to Florida.
>> I do notice what brands are on those roads, as an anti-boredom remedy.
>> Besides that most of the cheap cars like the Cruze, Civic, Corolla all
>> look pretty much the same to me, and I was never one to ID cars after
>> fins went away.
>> Just never cared much except about my own car.
>> I'll ask my kid and wife, who drive every day and are more car model
>> conscious than me, if they've seen a Craze.
>> Once I have a comfortable ride that I can keep mechanically sound I
>> pretty much forget about cars for 6-10 years until what I haves rusts
>> out.
>> Except for reading about them.
>> I've not even been in a Toyota in my life. Never.
>> Had one short lunch ride in a Civic, and one in an Accord.
>> My point is what cars you see is pretty much local and doesn't tell
>> the sales story except locally.
>
> right, but you've seen honda and toyota on the road. have you seen a
> cruze on the road?
>

I travel a lot, and I see more and more of them everywhere.

mg

On 06/23/2011 03:48 PM, MG wrote:
>
>
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> On 06/21/2011 05:58 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
>>> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:54:26 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> San Fran bay eyes only see what they can see.
>>>>> Here's the numbers for May,
>>>>> http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
>>>>
>>>> i know the reported sales figures, but truthfully, have you actually
>>>> seen one? i haven't, and not just for the bay area, but sacramento,
>>>> and all the way up to southern oregon. not one. i even asked a friend
>>>> in los angeles [he'd happened to have heard the same npr report],
>>>> and he
>>>> hasn't seen one either. it's not like l.a. doesn't have many cars.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I sat in one a couple weeks ago at the dealership when I was
>>> picking up parts for my Lumina.
>>> The Cruze has 10 air bags. Other than that it has the Ecotec engine.
>>> Don't remember anything else, even much of what it looked like.
>>> It's new, so it'll take a while for the numbers to build.
>>
>> well, if you believe the propaganda, the numbers have already "built".
>>
>> and you may have sat in one, but you didn't buy one and are not
>> driving one. and apparently neither is anyone else.
>>
>>
>>> Since I retired I hardly drive except for my annual trek to Florida.
>>> I do notice what brands are on those roads, as an anti-boredom remedy.
>>> Besides that most of the cheap cars like the Cruze, Civic, Corolla all
>>> look pretty much the same to me, and I was never one to ID cars after
>>> fins went away.
>>> Just never cared much except about my own car.
>>> I'll ask my kid and wife, who drive every day and are more car model
>>> conscious than me, if they've seen a Craze.
>>> Once I have a comfortable ride that I can keep mechanically sound I
>>> pretty much forget about cars for 6-10 years until what I haves rusts
>>> out.
>>> Except for reading about them.
>>> I've not even been in a Toyota in my life. Never.
>>> Had one short lunch ride in a Civic, and one in an Accord.
>>> My point is what cars you see is pretty much local and doesn't tell
>>> the sales story except locally.
>>
>> right, but you've seen honda and toyota on the road. have you seen a
>> cruze on the road?
>>
>
> I travel a lot, and I see more and more of them everywhere.
>
> mg

where are you located? how many volts and aveos have you seen in
comparison? i did 140 miles around the bay area yesterday - i still
didn't see a single one.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 06/23/2011 03:48 PM, MG wrote:
>>
>>
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> On 06/21/2011 05:58 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:54:26 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> San Fran bay eyes only see what they can see.
>>>>>> Here's the numbers for May,
>>>>>> http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
>>>>>
>>>>> i know the reported sales figures, but truthfully, have you actually
>>>>> seen one? i haven't, and not just for the bay area, but sacramento,
>>>>> and all the way up to southern oregon. not one. i even asked a friend
>>>>> in los angeles [he'd happened to have heard the same npr report],
>>>>> and he
>>>>> hasn't seen one either. it's not like l.a. doesn't have many cars.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I sat in one a couple weeks ago at the dealership when I was
>>>> picking up parts for my Lumina.
>>>> The Cruze has 10 air bags. Other than that it has the Ecotec engine.
>>>> Don't remember anything else, even much of what it looked like.
>>>> It's new, so it'll take a while for the numbers to build.
>>>
>>> well, if you believe the propaganda, the numbers have already "built".
>>>
>>> and you may have sat in one, but you didn't buy one and are not
>>> driving one. and apparently neither is anyone else.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Since I retired I hardly drive except for my annual trek to Florida.
>>>> I do notice what brands are on those roads, as an anti-boredom remedy.
>>>> Besides that most of the cheap cars like the Cruze, Civic, Corolla all
>>>> look pretty much the same to me, and I was never one to ID cars after
>>>> fins went away.
>>>> Just never cared much except about my own car.
>>>> I'll ask my kid and wife, who drive every day and are more car model
>>>> conscious than me, if they've seen a Craze.
>>>> Once I have a comfortable ride that I can keep mechanically sound I
>>>> pretty much forget about cars for 6-10 years until what I haves rusts
>>>> out.
>>>> Except for reading about them.
>>>> I've not even been in a Toyota in my life. Never.
>>>> Had one short lunch ride in a Civic, and one in an Accord.
>>>> My point is what cars you see is pretty much local and doesn't tell
>>>> the sales story except locally.
>>>
>>> right, but you've seen honda and toyota on the road. have you seen a
>>> cruze on the road?
>>>
>>
>> I travel a lot, and I see more and more of them everywhere.
>>
>> mg
>
> where are you located? how many volts and aveos have you seen in
> comparison? i did 140 miles around the bay area yesterday - i still
> didn't see a single one.
>
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum
>

I travel for work. In the past month I have been in Dallas, Miami, and
driven to State College PA from the Cincinnati area. I saw countless Aveos.
I saw a number of Cruzes, more than I have been seeing, and several with
dealer plates. Couldn't give you an exact number, but it was enough to
notice. I could give you an exact number on Volts, though: zero. I've
never seen one in my life.

On Jun 21, 7:19*am, "larry moe 'n curly" >
wrote:
> Tegger wrote:
>
> > Excerpt:
> > "The manifest ineptness on the part of Toyota in dealing with the
> > unintended acceleration crisis..."
>
> > Lutz's comment is completely unfair. What he fails to realize is that it's
> > impossible to reason with a lynch mob.
>
> > And considering that zero (0) people crashed, died, or were injured on
> > account of "unintended acceleration" caused by anything Toyota did or did
> > not do, Toyota was /definitely/ lynched. Even the US government joined the
> > lynch mob, with no apologies after the truth came out.
>
> > I generally like Lutz's outspokenness, but I'm disappointed in him with his
> > comments in that article.
>
> He also fails to explain how Chrysler, Ford, or GM would have handled
> a situation of this magnitude. *Toyota paid dealers to work 24 hours a
> day on the "problem", and the head of one large DC-Virgina dealer of
> several brands said none of the other manufacturers has ever taken
> problems as seriously.

Did they market the third pedal called "clutch" to the customers?
I tell ya, if it works everywhere else it must work in the united
states just as well.
Just press to stop unintended acceleration. Works well on all of my
cars
in concert with the brake pedal.