Car Safety Report: Bigger Is Better

On Jun 15, 7:39*am, Tegger > wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote in news:ita19629n8
> @news2.newsguy.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 06/15/2011 04:07 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> >> On 6/13/2011 9:43 AM, wrote:
> >>>http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=309034
>
> >>> Heck, I always knew that.
> >>> cuhulin
>
> >> Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in
> >> automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in
> >> the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.
>
> > People keep saying things like this, but I can't remember the last time
> > I even felt the ABS engage... *and traction control has made my life
> > less safe, if I have the loud pedal floored, I'm probably trying to
> > merge into heavy traffic, if a wheel hits a little patch of sand or
> > whatnot please don't cut off all the power. *So really, these electronic
> > tricks are doing essentially nothing for me...
>
> Anecdotally, ABS seems to cause all sorts of problems in my area, which has
> significant amounts of ice and snow in winter. The most common complaint I
> hear is that the ABS refused to allow the car to stop, and allowed it to
> keep moving forward, often right into an intersection. Remember, the job of
> ABS is to keep the tires from sliding, not to stop the car. Nobody I've
> personally talked to--who has had the ABS kick in for them--likes ABS, or
> even wants it anymore. One guy just bought a new Hyundai Accent, and was
> thrilled to find it came without ABS.
>
> Statistically, my understanding is that it's difficult, if not impossible
> to point to ANY sort of collision reductions that might be due to ABS.
>
> --
> Tegger

I do remember that being a serious problem (experienced it myself,
patchy ice could result in just "floating through" an intersection
that you'd have easily stopped for without the ABS) with early ABS
systems, the few newer ones I've tried have been much better. however
it's not inconceviable that there still may be some bad ones on the
market (some 10+ years later, but still...)

nate

N8N > wrote in
:


>
> I do remember that being a serious problem (experienced it myself,
> patchy ice could result in just "floating through" an intersection
> that you'd have easily stopped for without the ABS) with early ABS
> systems, the few newer ones I've tried have been much better. however
> it's not inconceviable that there still may be some bad ones on the
> market (some 10+ years later, but still...)
>


That's not a fault, it's a /design feature/. ABS is /meant/ to do that, and
that's what they /all/ do, no matter the manufacturer.

The single and sole purpose of ABS is to keep the tires from sliding when
the brakes are applied. The ABS has absolutely no idea what kind of surface
you're driving on, and has not a clue what sorts of obstacles you're
approaching as you move forward. If the tires begin to slide, the ABS will
kick in and prevent you from pushing the brake pedal down any further. And
so you continue forwards whether you like it or not. If your tires are
slightly worn, the effect is magnified. ABS is a bad idea.

--
Tegger

On Jun 16, 7:59*am, Tegger > wrote:
> N8N > wrote :
>
>
>
> > I do remember that being a serious problem (experienced it myself,
> > patchy ice could result in just "floating through" an intersection
> > that you'd have easily stopped for without the ABS) with early ABS
> > systems, the few newer ones I've tried have been much better. *however
> > it's not inconceviable that there still may be some bad ones on the
> > market (some 10+ years later, but still...)
>
> That's not a fault, it's a /design feature/. ABS is /meant/ to do that, and
> that's what they /all/ do, no matter the manufacturer.
>
> The single and sole purpose of ABS is to keep the tires from sliding when
> the brakes are applied. The ABS has absolutely no idea what kind of surface
> you're driving on, and has not a clue what sorts of obstacles you're
> approaching as you move forward. If the tires begin to slide, the ABS will
> kick in and prevent you from pushing the brake pedal down any further. And
> so you continue forwards whether you like it or not. If your tires are
> slightly worn, the effect is magnified. ABS is a bad idea.

Nah, I'm talking about a mostly clean road with just little patches of
ice on it. w/o ABS you hardly even notice the ice. with *good* ABS,
same same. But with *bad* ABS it will detect a wheel hitting a little
ice patch and next thing you know it feels like your vehicle is
actually speeding up (even though it's not, but you're seeing
everything in slow motion) as you lose all braking and just sail
through the intersection. BTDT. I've experienced decent ABS, and it
won't do that. But I remember some late 90's vintage Dodge vans w/
ABS that the "loss of all braking when traction really isn't that bad"
effect was experienced not only by YT but other drivers as well. It's
really kinda scary, and not at all safe. I don't even recall the
pedal pulsing as you would expect from ABS, I just remember it getting
real firm like it isolated and dumped pressure and then the brain
locked up or something.

nate

On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:34:00 -0700, N8N wrote:

But I
> remember some late 90's vintage Dodge vans w/ ABS that the "loss of all
> braking when traction really isn't that bad" effect was experienced not
> only by YT but other drivers as well. It's really kinda scary, and not
> at all safe. I don't even recall the pedal pulsing as you would expect
> from ABS, I just remember it getting real firm like it isolated and
> dumped pressure and then the brain locked up or something.
>
> nate

Probably the Bendix 10 system. It was the worst.

On 06/16/2011 05:18 PM, sctvguy1 wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:34:00 -0700, N8N wrote:
>
> But I
>> remember some late 90's vintage Dodge vans w/ ABS that the "loss of all
>> braking when traction really isn't that bad" effect was experienced not
>> only by YT but other drivers as well. It's really kinda scary, and not
>> at all safe. I don't even recall the pedal pulsing as you would expect
>> from ABS, I just remember it getting real firm like it isolated and
>> dumped pressure and then the brain locked up or something.
>>
>> nate
>
> Probably the Bendix 10 system. It was the worst.

this list

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_list.htm

says Kelsey-Hayes EBC-5, assuming the van that I am remembering was a
94-97 (which about fits with the timeline that I recall.) So I guess
I'm not a big fan of that system :/ The vans I believe were 3/4 ton or
1-ton frames, not sure which. Definitely not half ton. One had ABS,
one did not, the one without while older was definitely much safer (at
least for me) to drive in poor weather.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jun 15, 2:39*pm, Tegger > wrote:

> Anecdotally, ABS seems to cause all sorts of problems in my area, which has
> significant amounts of ice and snow in winter. The most common complaint I
> hear is that the ABS refused to allow the car to stop, and allowed it to
> keep moving forward, often right into an intersection. Remember, the job of

This would not have anything to do with all american insistence that
"all season" tires will do 4 seasons round and that
studs on winter tires somehow significantly damage the roadway,
thusly resulting in a ban in half of the states, would it?

.... and then came ABS, ESP and the associated complexity

On 6/23/2011 11:46 AM, AD wrote:
> On Jun 15, 2:39 pm, > wrote:
>
>> Anecdotally, ABS seems to cause all sorts of problems in my area, which has
>> significant amounts of ice and snow in winter. The most common complaint I
>> hear is that the ABS refused to allow the car to stop, and allowed it to
>> keep moving forward, often right into an intersection. Remember, the job of
>
> This would not have anything to do with all american insistence that
> "all season" tires will do 4 seasons round and that
> studs on winter tires somehow significantly damage the roadway,
> thusly resulting in a ban in half of the states, would it?
>

Yes, tire studs DO damage the cheap asphalt-topped american road
surfaces. They polish two nice grooves in it where water ponds at just
the right thickness to form strips of black ice. I started driving about
10 years before studs were mostly banned in my area, and saw it
first-hand. They had already been illegal 6 months out of the year, when
the sun and heat made the asphalt softer.

But having said that, I miss real snow tires as well. I never had
problems with real snows on the back, so-called M&S on the front, RWD,
and some ballast in the back. My FWD minivan, with M&S-rated Goodrich
TAs all around, does okay in fresh snow on the flat, but if there is
pack ice underneath, or any slope, or even on muddy grass in summer,
gets stuck real easy, with daylight showing underneath it. I carry a tow
strap now, and practice my 'help me' expression. And I'm a lot more
careful where I drive and park, even if it means walking a block. Only
advantage I can see for FWD, is it is a lot harder to get it ass-end-to
on slippery surfaces.



--
aem sends...

On Jun 24, 2:28*am, aemeijers > wrote:
> On 6/23/2011 11:46 AM, AD wrote:
>
> > On Jun 15, 2:39 pm, > *wrote:
>
> >> Anecdotally, ABS seems to cause all sorts of problems in my area, which has
> >> significant amounts of ice and snow in winter. The most common complaint I
> >> hear is that the ABS refused to allow the car to stop, and allowed it to
> >> keep moving forward, often right into an intersection. Remember, the job of
>
> > This would not have anything to do with all american insistence that
> > "all season" tires will do 4 seasons round and that
> > studs on winter tires somehow significantly damage the roadway,
> > thusly resulting in a ban in half of the states, would it?
>
> Yes, tire studs DO damage the cheap asphalt-topped american road
> surfaces. They polish two nice grooves in it where water ponds at just

Aw, come on, where I live it's far worse, primarily because
the recommended procedure for alphalt installation is hardly ever
followed and the stuff never gets a chance to cure properly
before traffic is allowed to roll on it.

> the right thickness to form strips of black ice. I started driving about
> 10 years before studs were mostly banned in my area, and saw it
> first-hand. They had already been illegal 6 months out of the year, when
> the sun and heat made the asphalt softer.
>
Well, winter tires, studded or not offer horrible grip on dry asphalt
even compared to M&S. Hopefully people have enough brains to
change for summer tires if only to avoid losing all the studs from
a soft and therefore weak stud wells whenever temps are over 40F

> But having said that, I miss real snow tires as well. I never had
> problems with real snows on the back, so-called M&S on the front, RWD,
> and some ballast in the back. My FWD minivan, with M&S-rated Goodrich
> TAs all around, does okay in fresh snow on the flat, but if there is
> pack ice underneath, or any slope, or even on muddy grass in summer,
> gets stuck real easy, with daylight showing underneath it. I carry a tow
> strap now, and practice my 'help me' expression. And I'm a lot more
> careful where I drive and park, even if it means walking a block. Only
> advantage I can see for FWD, is it is a lot harder to get it ass-end-to
> on slippery surfaces.
>
I got an RWD precisely to get my ass around quicker using throttle on
ice and snow.
But, then, I wear studded tires in winter and my A4+quattro will
receive a set for
the winter as well despite the any wheel drive capability.