Motorists KILLED due to floor mat jamming up gas pedal, including anodfficer and his family

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009...fx6946299.html Off duty
California state trooper and his family KILLED due to crash from gas
petal jammed by floor mat.

If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)

In article
>,
enough > wrote:

> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
> you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)

Why not just use the brake pedal?

No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the engine.

Not one.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:57:03 -0700, Alan Baker
> wrote:

>In article
>,
> enough > wrote:
>
>> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
>> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
>> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
>> you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)
>
>Why not just use the brake pedal?
>
>No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
>burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the engine.
>
>Not one.

Sorry Alan, that is not true. It might be true of a stopped vehicle
but is definitely wrong for a vehicle in motion. This entire
discussion was triggered by an accident in San Diego where an off
duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family of three were
killed when a Lexus with a stuck accelerator could not be stopped.
Witnesses reported seeing flames coming from the overheated brakes
that were unable to stop the 120 mph car. A 911 call from the
vehicle seconds before the crash also said the brakes would not stop
the car.

The suspected cause of the accident is wrongly installed floor mats
jamming the gas pedal. The August 28, 2009 accident caused Toyota
to recall 3.8 million vehicles to inspect floor mat installations.

On 2009-10-08, LDC > wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:57:03 -0700, Alan Baker
> wrote:
>
>>In article
>,
>> enough > wrote:
>>
>>> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
>>> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
>>> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
>>> you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)
>>
>>Why not just use the brake pedal?
>>
>>No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
>>burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the engine.
>>
>>Not one.

> Sorry Alan, that is not true. It might be true of a stopped vehicle
> but is definitely wrong for a vehicle in motion.

Put the myth busters on it. I've seen a car barely able to move because
of the parking brake stuck on one drum brake. I find it hard to believe
that a car with a braking system in good working order would continue to
accelerate once the brakes were applied.

> This entire
> discussion was triggered by an accident in San Diego where an off
> duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family of three were
> killed when a Lexus with a stuck accelerator could not be stopped.
> Witnesses reported seeing flames coming from the overheated brakes
> that were unable to stop the 120 mph car. A 911 call from the
> vehicle seconds before the crash also said the brakes would not stop
> the car.

Not seen that reported anywhere. Braking temperatures high enough to set
nearby materials on fire push credibility IMO. Although the vehicle not
having a properly working braking system in the first place is
belivable.

> The suspected cause of the accident is wrongly installed floor mats
> jamming the gas pedal. The August 28, 2009 accident caused Toyota
> to recall 3.8 million vehicles to inspect floor mat installations.

I suspect a minor problems being turned fatal by a population that is
showing the first signs of becoming like the women in the original star
trek episode "Spock's Brain".

Anyway the real blame goes where it almost always belongs, the automatic
transmission

LDC wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:57:03 -0700, Alan Baker
> > wrote:
>
>> In article
>> >,
>> enough > wrote:
>>
>>> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
>>> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
>>> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start
>>> requires you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off
>>> the engine)
>>
>> Why not just use the brake pedal?
>>
>> No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
>> burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the
>> engine.
>>
>> Not one.
>
> Sorry Alan, that is not true. It might be true of a stopped vehicle
> but is definitely wrong for a vehicle in motion. This entire
> discussion was triggered by an accident in San Diego where an off
> duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family of three were
> killed when a Lexus with a stuck accelerator could not be stopped.
> Witnesses reported seeing flames coming from the overheated brakes
> that were unable to stop the 120 mph car. A 911 call from the
> vehicle seconds before the crash also said the brakes would not stop
> the car.

Would have made a hell of a lot more sense to turn the engine off than try a 911 call.

> The suspected cause of the accident is wrongly installed floor mats
> jamming the gas pedal. The August 28, 2009 accident caused Toyota
> to recall 3.8 million vehicles to inspect floor mat installations.

In article >,
LDC > wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:57:03 -0700, Alan Baker
> > wrote:
>
> >In article
> >,
> > enough > wrote:
> >
> >> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
> >> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
> >> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
> >> you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)
> >
> >Why not just use the brake pedal?
> >
> >No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
> >burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the engine.
> >
> >Not one.
>
> Sorry Alan, that is not true. It might be true of a stopped vehicle
> but is definitely wrong for a vehicle in motion. This entire

It is absolutely true for a vehicle in motion.

> discussion was triggered by an accident in San Diego where an off
> duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family of three were
> killed when a Lexus with a stuck accelerator could not be stopped.
> Witnesses reported seeing flames coming from the overheated brakes
> that were unable to stop the 120 mph car. A 911 call from the
> vehicle seconds before the crash also said the brakes would not stop
> the car.

Then there was a problem with the brakes.

Do the math on a maximum effort panic stop from highway speeds: figure
out what the horsepower dissipated is.

>
> The suspected cause of the accident is wrongly installed floor mats
> jamming the gas pedal. The August 28, 2009 accident caused Toyota
> to recall 3.8 million vehicles to inspect floor mat installations.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

In article >,
LDC > wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:57:03 -0700, Alan Baker
> > wrote:
>
> >In article
> >,
> > enough > wrote:
> >
> >> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
> >> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
> >> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
> >> you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)
> >
> >Why not just use the brake pedal?
> >
> >No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
> >burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the engine.
> >
> >Not one.
>
> Sorry Alan, that is not true. It might be true of a stopped vehicle
> but is definitely wrong for a vehicle in motion. This entire
> discussion was triggered by an accident in San Diego where an off
> duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family of three were
> killed when a Lexus with a stuck accelerator could not be stopped.
> Witnesses reported seeing flames coming from the overheated brakes
> that were unable to stop the 120 mph car. A 911 call from the
> vehicle seconds before the crash also said the brakes would not stop
> the car.
>
> The suspected cause of the accident is wrongly installed floor mats
> jamming the gas pedal. The August 28, 2009 accident caused Toyota
> to recall 3.8 million vehicles to inspect floor mat installations.

I did it for you.

For a 3000 lb vehicle travelling 60 mph, a .9g panic stop dissipates 432
hp.

And remember that you can produce more retarding force from the brakes
than that.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:04:45 -0700, Alan Baker
> wrote:

>In article >,
> LDC > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:57:03 -0700, Alan Baker
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >In article
>> >,
>> > enough > wrote:
>> >
>> >> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
>> >> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
>> >> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
>> >> you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)
>> >
>> >Why not just use the brake pedal?
>> >
>> >No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
>> >burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the engine.
>> >
>> >Not one.
>>
>> Sorry Alan, that is not true. It might be true of a stopped vehicle
>> but is definitely wrong for a vehicle in motion. This entire
>> discussion was triggered by an accident in San Diego where an off
>> duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family of three were
>> killed when a Lexus with a stuck accelerator could not be stopped.
>> Witnesses reported seeing flames coming from the overheated brakes
>> that were unable to stop the 120 mph car. A 911 call from the
>> vehicle seconds before the crash also said the brakes would not stop
>> the car.
>>
>> The suspected cause of the accident is wrongly installed floor mats
>> jamming the gas pedal. The August 28, 2009 accident caused Toyota
>> to recall 3.8 million vehicles to inspect floor mat installations.
>
>I did it for you.
>
>For a 3000 lb vehicle travelling 60 mph, a .9g panic stop dissipates 432
>hp.
>
>And remember that you can produce more retarding force from the brakes
>than that.

Sorry Alan you are still wrong. I trust the accident investigators
a lot more than someone who hasn't inspected the vehicle involved.
Do you think they dismiss an incident that killed 4 people without a
thorough investigation? Another hint: it's not a .9g stop if the
car doesn't decelerate is it? Don't you think the manufacturer
would be interested in learning it was another problem before
recalling 3.8 million cars?

Did you factor in the brakes (over) heating as they are applied and
what that does to the stopping power? Actual, real live facts are
more important that very limited hypothetical speculations.

EoD

In article >,
LDC > wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:04:45 -0700, Alan Baker
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > LDC > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 02:57:03 -0700, Alan Baker
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article
> >> >,
> >> > enough > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> If this happens to you, the best thing to do is throw the car in
> >> >> NEUTRAL, so you keep your power brakes and steering, failing that,
> >> >> turn off the ignition (note, the Lexus with push button Start requires
> >> >> you to hold down the button for a few seconds to shut off the engine)
> >> >
> >> >Why not just use the brake pedal?
> >> >
> >> >No car anywhere -- with the possible exception of a nitromethane
> >> >burning, top-fuel dragster -- can overpower the brakes with the engine.
> >> >
> >> >Not one.
> >>
> >> Sorry Alan, that is not true. It might be true of a stopped vehicle
> >> but is definitely wrong for a vehicle in motion. This entire
> >> discussion was triggered by an accident in San Diego where an off
> >> duty California Highway Patrol officer and his family of three were
> >> killed when a Lexus with a stuck accelerator could not be stopped.
> >> Witnesses reported seeing flames coming from the overheated brakes
> >> that were unable to stop the 120 mph car. A 911 call from the
> >> vehicle seconds before the crash also said the brakes would not stop
> >> the car.
> >>
> >> The suspected cause of the accident is wrongly installed floor mats
> >> jamming the gas pedal. The August 28, 2009 accident caused Toyota
> >> to recall 3.8 million vehicles to inspect floor mat installations.
> >
> >I did it for you.
> >
> >For a 3000 lb vehicle travelling 60 mph, a .9g panic stop dissipates 432
> >hp.
> >
> >And remember that you can produce more retarding force from the brakes
> >than that.
>
> Sorry Alan you are still wrong. I trust the accident investigators
> a lot more than someone who hasn't inspected the vehicle involved.
> Do you think they dismiss an incident that killed 4 people without a
> thorough investigation? Another hint: it's not a .9g stop if the
> car doesn't decelerate is it? Don't you think the manufacturer
> would be interested in learning it was another problem before
> recalling 3.8 million cars?

I trust physics more than investigators; especially more than
investigators taking information from eyewitnesses, who are shown more
and more to be completely unreliable.

I used the .9g example to show what a cars braking system is capable of
-- more than capable of.

>
> Did you factor in the brakes (over) heating as they are applied and
> what that does to the stopping power? Actual, real live facts are
> more important that very limited hypothetical speculations.

LOL

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>