94Explorer:Fuel Pump runs runs run& cranks -no start

(Gil) wrote in message m>...
> "Jim Warman" > wrote in message news:<Fjznd.194202$9b.128910@edtnps84>...
> > The PCM controls the injectors. The ICM controls spark at the behest of the
> > PCM. The ICM also provides rpm signal to the PCM.
> >
> > What test are you using to prove that the PCM isn't pulsing the injectors?
> >
> > Rather than giving some aftermarket code description, I am better served
> > with the exact code retrieved. This way I can refer to the factoy service
> > manuals.
> >
> Here are the last set of codes I got from my Actron code scanner:
>
> 327
> 332
> 327
> 332
> ----
> 327
> 332
> 327
> 332
> ----
> 332
> 538
> 536
> 332
> ----
> 538
> 536
>
> All this is telling me that the EGR valve is not functioning or its
> not getting detected funciotning- but is it? I tryed unpluging &
> capped the vacuum line to it, did not make any differece running or
> driving. Its hooked back properly now.
>
> the 538 536 tell me I cant get it to do the second part of the KOER
> test.?
>
> Make any sense for the problem at hand?

I hooked up the scanner again last night & got these codes:
11/19/04

412
326
538
412
326
538
(these same codes sent again)

It does not seem I'm getting the dynamic response test required by doing a WOT?
What am I doing wrong? I see the engine code flash, the single light
blips, I turn the steering wheel, stomp on the brake, & then floor the bitch!
codes 412&538 = insufficent rpm change during DRT
I'm at a loose.

Thanks
Gil





>
>
> > "Gil" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > "Jim Warman" > wrote in message
> > > news:<QRbnd.277$y72.229@clgrps12>...
> > >> Well..... you keep saying that the CEL has come on when the problem
> > >> occurs..... is there some reason you arren't aving the code(s) read? This
> > >> is
> > >> offering what could be a very important clue to solving your problem. I
> > >> would think (at the very least) that you would have a memory code stored
> > >> in
> > >> the PCM.
> > >>
> > >> The module you are referring to, behind the right side headlight, would
> > >> be
> > >> the ignition control module..... not the PCM.
> > >
> > > Which one ICM or PCM gives the injectors a pulse when turning on the
> > > key?
> > > Is that the culprit not releasing that pulse until I cycle the key
> > > on-off a bunch of times?
> > > I will try again to get the codes this weekend. Maybe between my son &
> > > I we can get it to go into the second part of KOER test.
> > > All I come up with in the first part is "insufficant EGR
> > > voltage/opening"
> > > That anit it.
> > >
> > > Thanks again.

Scanning through the PC/ED, 538 wants to be sure that the rpm did go past
2000 during the dynamic response test - if it did, they are indicating a bad
PCM as the likely cause ( I always hesitate to suggest the module as the
culprit because it is to easy to shortcut a pin point test and all roads
lead - eventually - to replacing the module). 412 indicates that the PCM
can't control rpm to it's satisfaction.... any things can influence this
including having someone monkey with the base idle screw....


"Gil" > wrote in message
m...
> (Gil) wrote in message
> m>...
>> "Jim Warman" > wrote in message
>> news:<Fjznd.194202$9b.128910@edtnps84>...
>> > The PCM controls the injectors. The ICM controls spark at the behest of
>> > the
>> > PCM. The ICM also provides rpm signal to the PCM.
>> >
>> > What test are you using to prove that the PCM isn't pulsing the
>> > injectors?
>> >
>> > Rather than giving some aftermarket code description, I am better
>> > served
>> > with the exact code retrieved. This way I can refer to the factoy
>> > service
>> > manuals.
>> >
>> Here are the last set of codes I got from my Actron code scanner:
>>
>> 327
>> 332
>> 327
>> 332
>> ----
>> 327
>> 332
>> 327
>> 332
>> ----
>> 332
>> 538
>> 536
>> 332
>> ----
>> 538
>> 536
>>
>> All this is telling me that the EGR valve is not functioning or its
>> not getting detected funciotning- but is it? I tryed unpluging &
>> capped the vacuum line to it, did not make any differece running or
>> driving. Its hooked back properly now.
>>
>> the 538 536 tell me I cant get it to do the second part of the KOER
>> test.?
>>
>> Make any sense for the problem at hand?
>
> I hooked up the scanner again last night & got these codes:
> 11/19/04
>
> 412
> 326
> 538
> 412
> 326
> 538
> (these same codes sent again)
>
> It does not seem I'm getting the dynamic response test required by doing a
> WOT?
> What am I doing wrong? I see the engine code flash, the single light
> blips, I turn the steering wheel, stomp on the brake, & then floor the
> bitch!
> codes 412&538 = insufficent rpm change during DRT
> I'm at a loose.
>
> Thanks
> Gil
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> > "Gil" > wrote in message
>> > m...
>> > > "Jim Warman" > wrote in message
>> > > news:<QRbnd.277$y72.229@clgrps12>...
>> > >> Well..... you keep saying that the CEL has come on when the problem
>> > >> occurs..... is there some reason you arren't aving the code(s) read?
>> > >> This
>> > >> is
>> > >> offering what could be a very important clue to solving your
>> > >> problem. I
>> > >> would think (at the very least) that you would have a memory code
>> > >> stored
>> > >> in
>> > >> the PCM.
>> > >>
>> > >> The module you are referring to, behind the right side headlight,
>> > >> would
>> > >> be
>> > >> the ignition control module..... not the PCM.
>> > >
>> > > Which one ICM or PCM gives the injectors a pulse when turning on the
>> > > key?
>> > > Is that the culprit not releasing that pulse until I cycle the key
>> > > on-off a bunch of times?
>> > > I will try again to get the codes this weekend. Maybe between my son
>> > > &
>> > > I we can get it to go into the second part of KOER test.
>> > > All I come up with in the first part is "insufficant EGR
>> > > voltage/opening"
>> > > That anit it.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks again.

"Jim Warman" > wrote in message news:<hMCod.14738$l65.7095@clgrps13>...
> Scanning through the PC/ED, 538 wants to be sure that the rpm did go past
> 2000 during the dynamic response test - if it did, they are indicating a bad
> PCM as the likely cause ( I always hesitate to suggest the module as the
> culprit because it is to easy to shortcut a pin point test and all roads
> lead - eventually - to replacing the module). 412 indicates that the PCM
> can't control rpm to it's satisfaction.... any things can influence this
> including having someone monkey with the base idle screw....

No monkey business with it.
I am thinking about buying a PCM off E-Bay, but I don't know if it will interchange.
Mine is a F47F-12A650-NB UMP1
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/e-bay/My_Explorer_PCM.jpg

the one on Ebay is a F47F-12A650-MB VET1
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/e-bay/FS-Explorer_PCM.jpg
????

Gil


>
>
> "Gil" > wrote in message
> m...
> > (Gil) wrote in message
> > m>...
> >> "Jim Warman" > wrote in message
> >> news:<Fjznd.194202$9b.128910@edtnps84>...
> >> > The PCM controls the injectors. The ICM controls spark at the behest of
> >> > the
> >> > PCM. The ICM also provides rpm signal to the PCM.
> >> >
> >> > What test are you using to prove that the PCM isn't pulsing the
> >> > injectors?
> >> >
> >> > Rather than giving some aftermarket code description, I am better
> >> > served
> >> > with the exact code retrieved. This way I can refer to the factoy
> >> > service
> >> > manuals.
> >> >
> >> Here are the last set of codes I got from my Actron code scanner:
> >>
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> ----
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> ----
> >> 332
> >> 538
> >> 536
> >> 332
> >> ----
> >> 538
> >> 536
> >>
> >> All this is telling me that the EGR valve is not functioning or its
> >> not getting detected funciotning- but is it? I tryed unpluging &
> >> capped the vacuum line to it, did not make any differece running or
> >> driving. Its hooked back properly now.
> >>
> >> the 538 536 tell me I cant get it to do the second part of the KOER
> >> test.?
> >>
> >> Make any sense for the problem at hand?
> >
> > I hooked up the scanner again last night & got these codes:
> > 11/19/04
> >
> > 412
> > 326
> > 538
> > 412
> > 326
> > 538
> > (these same codes sent again)
> >
> > It does not seem I'm getting the dynamic response test required by doing a
> > WOT?
> > What am I doing wrong? I see the engine code flash, the single light
> > blips, I turn the steering wheel, stomp on the brake, & then floor the
> > bitch!
> > codes 412&538 = insufficent rpm change during DRT
> > I'm at a loose.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > "Gil" > wrote in message
> >> > m...
> >> > > "Jim Warman" > wrote in message
> >> > > news:<QRbnd.277$y72.229@clgrps12>...
> >> > >> Well..... you keep saying that the CEL has come on when the problem
> >> > >> occurs..... is there some reason you arren't aving the code(s) read?
> >> > >> This
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> offering what could be a very important clue to solving your
> >> > >> problem. I
> >> > >> would think (at the very least) that you would have a memory code
> >> > >> stored
> >> > >> in
> >> > >> the PCM.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The module you are referring to, behind the right side headlight,
> >> > >> would
> >> > >> be
> >> > >> the ignition control module..... not the PCM.
> >> > >
> >> > > Which one ICM or PCM gives the injectors a pulse when turning on the
> >> > > key?
> >> > > Is that the culprit not releasing that pulse until I cycle the key
> >> > > on-off a bunch of times?
> >> > > I will try again to get the codes this weekend. Maybe between my son
> >> > > &
> >> > > I we can get it to go into the second part of KOER test.
> >> > > All I come up with in the first part is "insufficant EGR
> >> > > voltage/opening"
> >> > > That anit it.
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks again.

Update - 3/22/2005

The last thing I did in November 04 was to swap out the ECM (inside by
passenger kick panel)
I bought it off E-Bay - big risk. but it worked & did the same as my
original, for about a week. Fuel pump runs, runs, engine cranks,
finally pump shuts off(pressurized)engine starts. F....!!1!..
Same **** different ECM. could I have 2 identically bad ones? Same
scanner codes also!
about a week later this FP run / no start problem went away.
Its now Feb. 05 & no problems with that.
CEL still comes on after a short time. 1min - 5min. & poor throttle
response from idle(smooth) to around 2000rpm. Not noticeable when on
the road.
It passed emmision test last week( weeew!)

So its one of "those" problems. The only thing I did was to run a few
cans of sea-foam injector cleaner in gas last Oct 04. Hmmmmmmm
I've never had much faith in cleaner additives correcting an injector
problem.
But I could see using it as preventive maintance regularly during the
year. I never did that.
Ok that's that for now. Time will tell

94 Explorer limited (yes very limited)
4L v6 4WD 160K (bought new in 95)
Have used Amzoil 2X / year its intire life. No oil leaks/no oil
burning.
I think that says somthing.

Thanks again to all out in usnet land!

Gil


Jim Warman wrote:
> Scanning through the PC/ED, 538 wants to be sure that the rpm did go
past
> 2000 during the dynamic response test - if it did, they are
indicating a bad
> PCM as the likely cause ( I always hesitate to suggest the module as
the
> culprit because it is to easy to shortcut a pin point test and all
roads
> lead - eventually - to replacing the module). 412 indicates that the
PCM
> can't control rpm to it's satisfaction.... any things can influence
this
> including having someone monkey with the base idle screw....
>
>
> "Gil" > wrote in message
> m...
> > (Gil) wrote in message
> > m>...
> >> "Jim Warman" > wrote in message
> >> news:<Fjznd.194202$9b.128910@edtnps84>...
> >> > The PCM controls the injectors. The ICM controls spark at the
behest of
> >> > the
> >> > PCM. The ICM also provides rpm signal to the PCM.
> >> >
> >> > What test are you using to prove that the PCM isn't pulsing the
> >> > injectors?
> >> >
> >> > Rather than giving some aftermarket code description, I am
better
> >> > served
> >> > with the exact code retrieved. This way I can refer to the
factoy
> >> > service
> >> > manuals.
> >> >
> >> Here are the last set of codes I got from my Actron code scanner:
> >>
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> ----
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> 327
> >> 332
> >> ----
> >> 332
> >> 538
> >> 536
> >> 332
> >> ----
> >> 538
> >> 536
> >>
> >> All this is telling me that the EGR valve is not functioning or
its
> >> not getting detected funciotning- but is it? I tryed unpluging &
> >> capped the vacuum line to it, did not make any differece running
or
> >> driving. Its hooked back properly now.
> >>
> >> the 538 536 tell me I cant get it to do the second part of the
KOER
> >> test.?
> >>
> >> Make any sense for the problem at hand?
> >
> > I hooked up the scanner again last night & got these codes:
> > 11/19/04
> >
> > 412
> > 326
> > 538
> > 412
> > 326
> > 538
> > (these same codes sent again)
> >
> > It does not seem I'm getting the dynamic response test required by
doing a
> > WOT?
> > What am I doing wrong? I see the engine code flash, the single
light
> > blips, I turn the steering wheel, stomp on the brake, & then floor
the
> > bitch!
> > codes 412&538 = insufficent rpm change during DRT
> > I'm at a loose.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > "Gil" > wrote in message
> >> > m...
> >> > > "Jim Warman" > wrote in message
> >> > > news:<QRbnd.277$y72.229@clgrps12>...
> >> > >> Well..... you keep saying that the CEL has come on when the
problem
> >> > >> occurs..... is there some reason you arren't aving the
code(s) read?
> >> > >> This
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> offering what could be a very important clue to solving your
> >> > >> problem. I
> >> > >> would think (at the very least) that you would have a memory
code
> >> > >> stored
> >> > >> in
> >> > >> the PCM.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The module you are referring to, behind the right side
headlight,
> >> > >> would
> >> > >> be
> >> > >> the ignition control module..... not the PCM.
> >> > >
> >> > > Which one ICM or PCM gives the injectors a pulse when turning
on the
> >> > > key?
> >> > > Is that the culprit not releasing that pulse until I cycle the
key
> >> > > on-off a bunch of times?
> >> > > I will try again to get the codes this weekend. Maybe between
my son
> >> > > &
> >> > > I we can get it to go into the second part of KOER test.
> >> > > All I come up with in the first part is "insufficant EGR
> >> > > voltage/opening"
> >> > > That anit it.
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks again.