CJ7 starter / solenoid

Hey y'all;
I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
original engine, 3 spd manual.

The starter turns fine, plenty of juice in the battery. It won't engage
with the flywheel to start the engine. We've had torrential rains (7
1/2 inches in a day) and the jeep was outside. I'm assuming the
solenoid got wet and isn't engaging the armeture on the starter. I
bought a new starter to make sure it wasn't the problem, but does the
same as the old one (its the original starter, so before I replaced
anything else, I assumed that it was the starter, and didn't have a
chance to take it off and check it before I went to the auto parts
store).

Any chance it's anything other than the solenoid? The flywheel is
clean, no chips in the teeth, and it does not sound like the starter is
mating with the flywheel. Have I guessed it right, or am I missing
something?

Thanks,
-K

Use a jumper cable to momentarily connect the starter
to the positive on the battery. If the engine cranks normally
then suspect the solenoid.

Solenoids do actually die. I had to replace the one in my 87
a few months ago.


> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hey y'all;
> I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
> my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
> clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
> have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
> original engine, 3 spd manual.
>
> The starter turns fine, plenty of juice in the battery. It won't engage
> with the flywheel to start the engine. We've had torrential rains (7
> 1/2 inches in a day) and the jeep was outside. I'm assuming the
> solenoid got wet and isn't engaging the armeture on the starter. I
> bought a new starter to make sure it wasn't the problem, but does the
> same as the old one (its the original starter, so before I replaced
> anything else, I assumed that it was the starter, and didn't have a
> chance to take it off and check it before I went to the auto parts
> store).
>
> Any chance it's anything other than the solenoid? The flywheel is
> clean, no chips in the teeth, and it does not sound like the starter is
> mating with the flywheel. Have I guessed it right, or am I missing
> something?
>
> Thanks,
> -K
>

wrote:
> Hey y'all;
> I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
> my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
> clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
> have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
> original engine, 3 spd manual.

I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.

>
> The starter turns fine, plenty of juice in the battery. It won't engage
> with the flywheel to start the engine. We've had torrential rains (7
> 1/2 inches in a day) and the jeep was outside. I'm assuming the
> solenoid got wet and isn't engaging the armeture on the starter. I
> bought a new starter to make sure it wasn't the problem, but does the
> same as the old one (its the original starter, so before I replaced
> anything else, I assumed that it was the starter, and didn't have a
> chance to take it off and check it before I went to the auto parts
> store).

Take the starter back to the store. Most chain parts retailers will
test your starter, free, and bad rebuilt parts are not uncommon. If
they can't test it, pull the starter, chain it down or chuck it in a
vice so it won't run away from you. Connect a set of jumpers to a
battery, clamp the [+] to the cable post on the starter. Hit the case
with the [-] clamp, and watch for the Bendix drive (the bit with the
gear teath on it) when it slides out to the tail of the starter. If it
doesn't move the starter's NG.


> Any chance it's anything other than the solenoid? The flywheel is
> clean, no chips in the teeth, and it does not sound like the starter is
> mating with the flywheel. Have I guessed it right, or am I missing
> something?

If the above tests out OK, replace the relay on the fender. You might
be passing enough juice to fire the starter motor but not enough to pull
in the Bendix.


>
> Thanks,
> -K
>

Your 'inline' 258 has a relay and a bendex, no kicker solenoid like a GM
would have.

If you have a V shaped engine, my fix below isn't likely valid and you
really need to find out what engine is in there.....

You should be able to 'bench test' the new or old starter using booster
cables. I hold the starter down with my foot and hook up the positive
connection to the battery positive, then take the other booster cable
from the battery negative and touch the starter case. The starter will
spin up and the gear will shoot out to the end. If the gear doesn't
shoot out, the starter is bad or you have a really low battery.

The 'solenoid' is on the fender and costs less than ten bucks. It does
get bad connections that usually just result in a click, not the starter
spinning free although it can happen with a dirty connection. It can be
cleaned or replaced.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

" wrote:
>
> Hey y'all;
> I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
> my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
> clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
> have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
> original engine, 3 spd manual.
>
> The starter turns fine, plenty of juice in the battery. It won't engage
> with the flywheel to start the engine. We've had torrential rains (7
> 1/2 inches in a day) and the jeep was outside. I'm assuming the
> solenoid got wet and isn't engaging the armeture on the starter. I
> bought a new starter to make sure it wasn't the problem, but does the
> same as the old one (its the original starter, so before I replaced
> anything else, I assumed that it was the starter, and didn't have a
> chance to take it off and check it before I went to the auto parts
> store).
>
> Any chance it's anything other than the solenoid? The flywheel is
> clean, no chips in the teeth, and it does not sound like the starter is
> mating with the flywheel. Have I guessed it right, or am I missing
> something?
>
> Thanks,
> -K

It took two Bosch and one Champion starter to finally get a rebuilt that
started my 81 CJ, try another rebuilt.


> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hey y'all;
> I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
> my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
> clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
> have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
> original engine, 3 spd manual.
>
> The starter turns fine, plenty of juice in the battery. It won't engage
> with the flywheel to start the engine. We've had torrential rains (7
> 1/2 inches in a day) and the jeep was outside. I'm assuming the
> solenoid got wet and isn't engaging the armeture on the starter. I
> bought a new starter to make sure it wasn't the problem, but does the
> same as the old one (its the original starter, so before I replaced
> anything else, I assumed that it was the starter, and didn't have a
> chance to take it off and check it before I went to the auto parts
> store).
>
> Any chance it's anything other than the solenoid? The flywheel is
> clean, no chips in the teeth, and it does not sound like the starter is
> mating with the flywheel. Have I guessed it right, or am I missing
> something?
>
> Thanks,
> -K
>

Lee Ayrton wrote:
> wrote:
> > Hey y'all;
> > I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
> > my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
> > clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
> > have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
> > original engine, 3 spd manual.
>

> I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.

Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
placement of the cylinders.

> > The starter turns fine, plenty of juice in the battery. It won't engage
> > with the flywheel to start the engine. We've had torrential rains (7
> > 1/2 inches in a day) and the jeep was outside. I'm assuming the
> > solenoid got wet and isn't engaging the armeture on the starter. I
> > bought a new starter to make sure it wasn't the problem, but does the
> > same as the old one (its the original starter, so before I replaced
> > anything else, I assumed that it was the starter, and didn't have a
> > chance to take it off and check it before I went to the auto parts
> > store).
>
> Take the starter back to the store. Most chain parts retailers will
> test your starter, free, and bad rebuilt parts are not uncommon. If
> they can't test it, pull the starter, chain it down or chuck it in a
> vice so it won't run away from you. Connect a set of jumpers to a
> battery, clamp the [+] to the cable post on the starter. Hit the case
> with the [-] clamp, and watch for the Bendix drive (the bit with the
> gear teath on it) when it slides out to the tail of the starter. If it
> doesn't move the starter's NG.

Ok, so get this. I get the new relay/solenoid, install it, nothing.
Huh. Reinstall the old, same deal. Try bypassing the solenoid, nothing
on the starter (old starter). Plenty of amps in the battery to turn it
over. Try bench testing the old starter; nothing. Try bench testing the
new starter, nothing. What gives? They both spun last night when I was
having the difficulty, now I try and bench test them and they won't go?
New or old? Yes, I hooked it up correctly with the pos / neg. Weird. If
I have the ignition in the acc position (full counterclockwise) with
the old solenoid, I get some juice to the radio, but nothing else. No
lights, no nothing else. It;s the original harness, and up until I had
difficulty, no problemo. Everything worked. Now, nada. Any ideas,
hints, etc? I am going to return both the solenoid and the starter, but
dagumit, wish I knew the answer. I checked the fuse blck, all fuses are
fine. If it were the ignition, I assume bypassing the solenoid would
turn the engine over? Help please before I have to drag it down the
road to my repair guy.
>
>
> > Any chance it's anything other than the solenoid? The flywheel is
> > clean, no chips in the teeth, and it does not sound like the starter is
> > mating with the flywheel. Have I guessed it right, or am I missing
> > something?
>
> If the above tests out OK, replace the relay on the fender. You might
> be passing enough juice to fire the starter motor but not enough to pull
> in the Bendix.
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -K
> >
Thanks again!

You are either doing something radically wrong or there is something
radically wrong....

For starters you have the wrong 'book'. There is no V involved in the
258. It is a normal straight six engine with 12 valves, 2 per cylinder.

From all the strange symptoms I would have to figure you have to have a
dead battery connection between the cable clamp and the battery post.
Nothing else makes any sense.

I would be removing the battery cable clamps and giving them a good
clean, then I would be at least checking the battery with a meter to see
how dead it now is.

Don't forget the solenoid has to be grounded to turn on and on which
side you took the old wires off from. There should be at least 3 loop
connectors on the solenoid battery side post and only one on the starter
side with 2 small wires on the small posts.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

" wrote:
>
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
> > wrote:
> > > Hey y'all;
> > > I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
> > > my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
> > > clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
> > > have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
> > > original engine, 3 spd manual.
> >
>
> > I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.
>
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.
>
> > > The starter turns fine, plenty of juice in the battery. It won't engage
> > > with the flywheel to start the engine. We've had torrential rains (7
> > > 1/2 inches in a day) and the jeep was outside. I'm assuming the
> > > solenoid got wet and isn't engaging the armeture on the starter. I
> > > bought a new starter to make sure it wasn't the problem, but does the
> > > same as the old one (its the original starter, so before I replaced
> > > anything else, I assumed that it was the starter, and didn't have a
> > > chance to take it off and check it before I went to the auto parts
> > > store).
> >
> > Take the starter back to the store. Most chain parts retailers will
> > test your starter, free, and bad rebuilt parts are not uncommon. If
> > they can't test it, pull the starter, chain it down or chuck it in a
> > vice so it won't run away from you. Connect a set of jumpers to a
> > battery, clamp the [+] to the cable post on the starter. Hit the case
> > with the [-] clamp, and watch for the Bendix drive (the bit with the
> > gear teath on it) when it slides out to the tail of the starter. If it
> > doesn't move the starter's NG.
>
> Ok, so get this. I get the new relay/solenoid, install it, nothing.
> Huh. Reinstall the old, same deal. Try bypassing the solenoid, nothing
> on the starter (old starter). Plenty of amps in the battery to turn it
> over. Try bench testing the old starter; nothing. Try bench testing the
> new starter, nothing. What gives? They both spun last night when I was
> having the difficulty, now I try and bench test them and they won't go?
> New or old? Yes, I hooked it up correctly with the pos / neg. Weird. If
> I have the ignition in the acc position (full counterclockwise) with
> the old solenoid, I get some juice to the radio, but nothing else. No
> lights, no nothing else. It;s the original harness, and up until I had
> difficulty, no problemo. Everything worked. Now, nada. Any ideas,
> hints, etc? I am going to return both the solenoid and the starter, but
> dagumit, wish I knew the answer. I checked the fuse blck, all fuses are
> fine. If it were the ignition, I assume bypassing the solenoid would
> turn the engine over? Help please before I have to drag it down the
> road to my repair guy.
> >
> >
> > > Any chance it's anything other than the solenoid? The flywheel is
> > > clean, no chips in the teeth, and it does not sound like the starter is
> > > mating with the flywheel. Have I guessed it right, or am I missing
> > > something?
> >
> > If the above tests out OK, replace the relay on the fender. You might
> > be passing enough juice to fire the starter motor but not enough to pull
> > in the Bendix.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -K
> > >
> Thanks again!

But it isn't a 6 valve engine either. It's a 12 valve engine.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

wrote:
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

wrote:
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
wrote:
>>
>>>Hey y'all;
>>>I have a '79 CJ7 that I'm slowly replacing, piece by piece. I drove to
>>>my Dad's today, and my Jeep wouldn't start. I ended up popping the
>>>clutch to get it to run, but couldn't take it to work since I didn't
>>>have a place to run it downhill to pop it again. It's got a 258 V6
>>>original engine, 3 spd manual.
>
>>I-6, not V-6. Inline, not v-formation.
>
> Yes, I realize that. It's a 6 cylinder, and the manual refers to it as
> a V6, I'm assuming they do because it's a 6 valve engine, no the
> placement of the cylinders.

I'm curious, what manual do you have that does that?


[original symptom: Starter spins up but does not engage flywheel]
[advice: bench test the starter]

> Ok, so get this. I get the new relay/solenoid, install it, nothing.
> Huh. Reinstall the old, same deal. Try bypassing the solenoid, nothing
> on the starter (old starter). Plenty of amps in the battery to turn it
> over.

OK, back up a bit. How do you know you've plenty of amps at the
battery? How did you test it? How do you know that current is getting
to the ends of the cables? I'm not jumping on you, I'm trying to get
all the details straight in my head. I've got the same setup as you:
`79 CJ, 258.


> Try bench testing the old starter; nothing. Try bench testing the
> new starter, nothing. What gives? They both spun last night when I was
> having the difficulty, now I try and bench test them and they won't go?

How did you connect them up? Did you use jumper cables directly on
battery posts or did you clamp them onto the vehicle's battery terminal
clamps? I ask because there could be enough crud between the post and
the clamp to allow enough juice for, say, the radio but not enough to
power up a high-amp device like a starter motor. If you tried to test
it with a battery charger there's likely not enough power available to
turn the motor over.


> New or old? Yes, I hooked it up correctly with the pos / neg. Weird. If
> I have the ignition in the acc position (full counterclockwise) with
> the old solenoid, I get some juice to the radio, but nothing else. No
> lights, no nothing else. It;s the original harness, and up until I had
> difficulty, no problemo. Everything worked. Now, nada. Any ideas,
> hints, etc?

Yep. There's six connections that you need to physically remove, clean
and replace: Each battery post clamp and the lug end of each of those
two cables, plus the lug ends of the jumper that runs to the starter.

The negative cable runs to a bolt on the engine block, this ensures
there's enough ampacity on the ground side to power the starter. If the
negative cable attaches anywhere else move it to the proper place, a
threaded hole in a casting boss above and forward of the starter motor.
(or anywhere else on the block, but /only/ on the block). Shine up
the iron and the copper lug end with some sand paper. Rust is your enemy.

The positive battery cable ends at the starter relay bolted to the right
inner fender. The main positive connection to the vehicle harness should
also be on that post. Clean it well and tighten - use two wrenches
because you don't want to twist the post and break the connections
inside. The other large post holds the jumper to the starter motor.
Clean, etc. The two smaller posts on the starter relay are a signal
line from the ignition switch to tell the relay when to close and feed
power to the starter and a line that feeds raw battery power to the [+]
side of the coil during starting. When you release the key from [start]
to [run] the [+] side of the coil is fed about 7V through a resistor in
the harness.

All of the vehicle B+ power comes through the wires and cable on that
first post. If it isn't a clean, tight connection you won't have
lights, accessories or a starter. All of the vehicle B- power goes
through that engine block connection.


> I am going to return both the solenoid and the starter, but
> dagumit, wish I knew the answer. I checked the fuse blck, all fuses are
> fine.

There's nothing in the starter motor circuit that's fused. The only
exception would be an after market harness with a master system fuse but
if that popped you'd have no usable power anywhere.


> If it were the ignition, I assume bypassing the solenoid would
> turn the engine over? Help please before I have to drag it down the
> road to my repair guy.

OK, back up a moment. Your original symptom was that the starter spun
up but wouldn't engage the flywheel. My original thought was that you
had something going on that would allow enough current to spin the motor
but not enough to pull in the Bendix drive. Under that little
Twinkie-shaped metal cover on your `79 Ford (yep, GM steering column,
Ford starting) starter is a magnetic arm that is pulled in when the
field coil is energized. When it pulls in a fork pushes the drive gear
out to engage with the flywheel ring gear -- and that's what wasn't
happening on your original starter. There's also a set of large contact
points under there, I don't recall if they open or close when the drive
extends. You might look there and see if they're clean.

And, as Mike suggested, check your ground straps. There's one from the
back of the engine block to the firewall to ground the tub and another
that bridges the left engine mount from block to frame, and the battery
cable _must_ go to the block on your engine, don't rely on the ground
straps to carry starting current -- because they can't. But first,
check those battery connections.

Let us know how you make out.

But the 1947 GMC six is thirty two valve.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Dave Milne wrote:
>
> But it isn't a 6 valve engine either. It's a 12 valve engine.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ