A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto newsgroups » Driving
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

hybrids: toyota vs. honda



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old January 18th 05, 05:17 PM
C. E. White
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



fbloogyudsr wrote:
>
> "C. E. White" > wrote
> > Arif Khokar wrote:
> >> C. E. White wrote:
> >>
> >> > I know little about snow tires and have never felt that I
> >> > needed any.
> >>
> >> I felt the same way until I actually got a set. A set will probably
> >> cost a little more than you would pay for a tow, but it's definitely
> >> cheaper than the body shop.

> >
> > I don't claim to be an expert on winter driving. I spent one
> > winter in Michigan (1978 - it was bad) and have to endure
> > one or two snow storms a year here in NC. I have never found
> > driving on snow to be much of a challenge. In fact, the
> > winter in Michigan was a piece of cake. I was driving a
> > Datsun 280Z at the time and never once had any problem
> > despite repeated snow storms and the OE Bridgestone tires.
> >
> > ... Biggest challenge I had was driving a 2001
> > Mustang GT convertible home on a hilly road after an ice
> > storm. Between the limited slip rear axle and the traction
> > control, the car was almost undrivable. I never lost
> > control, but because of the stop and go traffic, I was often
> > stopped on the up slope of a steep hill. Getting the car
> > started without bring the rear end around was a challenge.
> > Fortunately I was patient and eventually made it home
> > without incident. I can't say the same for a number of
> > people in SUVs who didn't understand that ice equals little
> > or no traction no matter how big your tires are and whether
> > 2 or 4 are being driven.

>
> Looks like your patience got you through. But, the fact is
> that if you had had snows (even if just on the rears of your RWD
> cars), you would have had a much easier time of it.


Maybe, but from what I have seen, snow tires don't help all
that much on ice. I suppose if I lived in a place where you
had snow on the ground 100 days a year, I'd buy snow tires
as well. I can't see doing it for 5 days a year (well 14
days one year).

Ed
Ads
  #32  
Old January 18th 05, 05:24 PM
fbloogyudsr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"C. E. White" > wrote
> fbloogyudsr wrote:
>> Looks like your patience got you through. But, the fact is
>> that if you had had snows (even if just on the rears of your RWD
>> cars), you would have had a much easier time of it.

>
> Maybe, but from what I have seen, snow tires don't help all
> that much on ice. I suppose if I lived in a place where you
> had snow on the ground 100 days a year, I'd buy snow tires
> as well. I can't see doing it for 5 days a year (well 14
> days one year).


While studded snow tires (illegal in many states, as well
as most European countries) are the best option on ice,
most modern studless snow tires have design elements
that make them almost as good on ice (assuming the driver
doesn't make the mistake of using too much gas - the most
common mistake). Even the old "sawdust" tires from the
50's/60's were better. The new designs and sawdust tires
depend upon forming multiple suction cups to increase
traction.

Floyd
  #33  
Old January 18th 05, 05:24 PM
fbloogyudsr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"C. E. White" > wrote
> fbloogyudsr wrote:
>> Looks like your patience got you through. But, the fact is
>> that if you had had snows (even if just on the rears of your RWD
>> cars), you would have had a much easier time of it.

>
> Maybe, but from what I have seen, snow tires don't help all
> that much on ice. I suppose if I lived in a place where you
> had snow on the ground 100 days a year, I'd buy snow tires
> as well. I can't see doing it for 5 days a year (well 14
> days one year).


While studded snow tires (illegal in many states, as well
as most European countries) are the best option on ice,
most modern studless snow tires have design elements
that make them almost as good on ice (assuming the driver
doesn't make the mistake of using too much gas - the most
common mistake). Even the old "sawdust" tires from the
50's/60's were better. The new designs and sawdust tires
depend upon forming multiple suction cups to increase
traction.

Floyd
  #34  
Old January 18th 05, 05:40 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


fbloogyudsr wrote:
> "C. E. White" > wrote
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Which doesn't imply that you are correct in any way. I would

suggest
> >> that the experiences of an automotive profession carries more

weight
> >> than some d00d in usenet.

> >
> > Elevating most of them to "automotive
> > profession<al>" is a little much. Maybe CSABA CSERE is a
> > great author and maybe he has driven a lot of cool cars, but
> > I imagine his area of expertise is not tire dynamics.


Indeed, the word I meant to type was "professional".

> If you had investigated further, you would discover that Csaba
> is an "MIT educated automotive engineer". Are you? If not,
> perhaps you should accede to his expert opinion.


And having had a great deal of experience with different tiers on
different drivetrain layouts might make him better-informed in the
area. Some opinions are worth more than others.

> If you have actually read C&D for a while, you would know
> that they actually test things that they talk about. For instance,
> a couple of years ago they tested snow tires and DSC, etc.
> The tables are easy to read, even for non-technical persons.


Then there's folks like me. I have driven a FWD Audi 4000 and an AWD
Audi 4000 quattro in similar conditions, with similar tires. Since
they are essentially the same car, comparisons can be made.

a.) The quattro with no-seasons can get around OK under all conditions
except glare ice. Stable, predictable, if not blazingly fast (not
that an Audi 4k quattro was blazingly fast in any conditions.)

b.) The FWD version had some trouble with hills and getting away from
curbs on steeply-crowned roads on no-seasons. Otherwise, it got around
about as well as the quattro, with slightly less giddyup from a stop.

c.) The FWD with snows could kick the quattro's taillights if the
quattro was shod in no-seasons. Cornering, braking and acceleration in
a straight line. Steeper hillclimbs were still trouble, even with
snows. AWD wins there, no question. Glare ice was still a big
problem. Only studs or chain can help with glare ice, and even then,
it's kinda dicey. Ever been in Portland OR during an ice storm? Even
studs and AWD don't do much for you (but you can at least get around in
the non-hilly parts of the city.)

d.) Snows and quattro put the rest of the combos to shame. You're
only limited by ground clearance., and even then, you can push a bit of
snow, if it's not too deep.

Conclusion: if you have to drive for any length of time on snow and
ice, snow tires help out a ton. If you want the best performance, AWD
+ snows can't be beat. If it's not hilly, 2WD + no-seasons is
adequate. Running summer tires or performance tires in the snow runs a
high probability for a tow or body damage or both. AWD or not. Maybe
more with AWD due to a false sense of security.

Hand,

E.P.

  #35  
Old January 18th 05, 05:40 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


fbloogyudsr wrote:
> "C. E. White" > wrote
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Which doesn't imply that you are correct in any way. I would

suggest
> >> that the experiences of an automotive profession carries more

weight
> >> than some d00d in usenet.

> >
> > Elevating most of them to "automotive
> > profession<al>" is a little much. Maybe CSABA CSERE is a
> > great author and maybe he has driven a lot of cool cars, but
> > I imagine his area of expertise is not tire dynamics.


Indeed, the word I meant to type was "professional".

> If you had investigated further, you would discover that Csaba
> is an "MIT educated automotive engineer". Are you? If not,
> perhaps you should accede to his expert opinion.


And having had a great deal of experience with different tiers on
different drivetrain layouts might make him better-informed in the
area. Some opinions are worth more than others.

> If you have actually read C&D for a while, you would know
> that they actually test things that they talk about. For instance,
> a couple of years ago they tested snow tires and DSC, etc.
> The tables are easy to read, even for non-technical persons.


Then there's folks like me. I have driven a FWD Audi 4000 and an AWD
Audi 4000 quattro in similar conditions, with similar tires. Since
they are essentially the same car, comparisons can be made.

a.) The quattro with no-seasons can get around OK under all conditions
except glare ice. Stable, predictable, if not blazingly fast (not
that an Audi 4k quattro was blazingly fast in any conditions.)

b.) The FWD version had some trouble with hills and getting away from
curbs on steeply-crowned roads on no-seasons. Otherwise, it got around
about as well as the quattro, with slightly less giddyup from a stop.

c.) The FWD with snows could kick the quattro's taillights if the
quattro was shod in no-seasons. Cornering, braking and acceleration in
a straight line. Steeper hillclimbs were still trouble, even with
snows. AWD wins there, no question. Glare ice was still a big
problem. Only studs or chain can help with glare ice, and even then,
it's kinda dicey. Ever been in Portland OR during an ice storm? Even
studs and AWD don't do much for you (but you can at least get around in
the non-hilly parts of the city.)

d.) Snows and quattro put the rest of the combos to shame. You're
only limited by ground clearance., and even then, you can push a bit of
snow, if it's not too deep.

Conclusion: if you have to drive for any length of time on snow and
ice, snow tires help out a ton. If you want the best performance, AWD
+ snows can't be beat. If it's not hilly, 2WD + no-seasons is
adequate. Running summer tires or performance tires in the snow runs a
high probability for a tow or body damage or both. AWD or not. Maybe
more with AWD due to a false sense of security.

Hand,

E.P.

  #36  
Old January 18th 05, 06:40 PM
C. E. White
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



fbloogyudsr wrote:
>
> "C. E. White" > wrote
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Which doesn't imply that you are correct in any way. I would suggest
> >> that the experiences of an automotive profession carries more weight
> >> than some d00d in usenet.

> >
> > I know little about snow tires and have never felt that I
> > needed any. I do however have an opinion of automobile
> > magazine authors. Elevating most of them to "automotive
> > profession<al>" is a little much. Maybe CSABA CSERE is a
> > great author and maybe he has driven a lot of cool cars, but
> > I imagine his area of expertise is not tire dynamics.

>
> If you had investigated further, you would discover that Csaba
> is an "MIT educated automotive engineer". Are you? If not,
> perhaps you should accede to his expert opinion.


I am not an MIT educated engineer, although I am an engineer
of some sort (and have been for 30 years). I did play
engineer in the automotive industry for about 4 months once,
until I decided I hated cold weather more than I liked
working in the automotive industry. Do you have a copy of
Mr. Csere's resume handy? It would be interesting to see
what he has actually done outside of the publishing
buisness. The term "Automotive Engineer" could mean almost
anything, from someone responsible for a team designing a
complete suspension system to the guy washing the car at the
test track. I don't doubt that Mr Csere is a brilliant and
accomplished engineer. And I can understand why you might
value his opinion higher than mine or others that play on
the interent. Still, when all is said and done, the article
quoted was clearly an opinion piece. No hard facts were
presented. No documented comparison referenced. Only Mr.
Csere's feelings were presented. I don't doubt that most
snow tires are an improvement on over most "regular" tires
when driving on snow. I do think it might be hard to prove
that any 2WD (particualry a RWD) vehicle on snow tires can
handle snow better than any 4WD or AWD vehicle on any
"regular" tires. If you want to put up the money for such a
study (say 5 million), I'm your man. I feel certain I could
design a good experiment to confirm or deny the hypothesis.
Only problem would be my dislike of cold weather. But for
the right money, I could overcome this objection.

> > The
> > particular article quoted was interesting, but seemed to be
> > little more than one man's opinion. The fact that his
> > opinion was printed in Car and Driver doesn't make it any
> > more valid than one man's opinion expressed through the
> > internet. The whole article smacked of a Tire Rack article
> > designed to sell snow tires.

>
> If you have actually read C&D for a while, you would know
> that they actually test things that they talk about. For instance,
> a couple of years ago they tested snow tires and DSC, etc.
> The tables are easy to read, even for non-technical persons.


I used to read C&D religiously (and R&T as well). However,
most of their "tests" are too close to commercials
(particularly the road tests). Their tests are interesting,
but often not particualrly scientific. They are just about
as credible as the "Myth Busters" on the Discovery Channel.
Entertaining, interesting, stimulating, but hardly the best
designed tests around. I am not a big fan of Consumer
Reports - at least when it comes to opinions and surveys,
but I do trust their test methods more than C&D or R&T. They
have their own track, buy their own test specimans, and at
least understand how to run a decent test. Sometimes they
have been know to do things I don't agree with (like
changing a test procedure in the middle of a test), but in
generally they are honest about it. I looked at their
ratings for snow versus all season tires, and at least
according to their data, it appears that some all season
tires are better in the snow than some snow tires. For
instance, BFGoodrich Control T/A had a better snow traction
rating than Michelin Artic Alpin tires. The Car and Driver
test that "proved" that snow tires are more import than AWD
("What Price Traction?" May 1999) is no longer available
from C&D's web site, but a copy is available at
(
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc...ex.php/t-50930).
This article and their latter article comparing performance
and snow tires on several AWD vehicles
(http://www.caranddriver.com/article....age_numb er=1)
are flawed. They comapred one particualr type of snow tires
(Bridgestone Blizzak in one test, Dunlop Winter Sport M2 in
the other) to the OE tires provided with the vehicles. All
this proves is that the Bridgestones or Dunlops are better
in the snow than the particualr OE tires on the cars. It
doesn't prove anything general when you are comparing all
season or performace tires to snow tires on all vehicles. In
the more recent test, I was suprised by how little the
advantage really was given the inherent bias of the test.
The avarage snow tire's advantage over the 1.8 mile corse
was less than 8%. Hardly seems likel a slam dunk
recommendation for the snow tires. If you beleive the CR
test, there is more than an 8% difference in brands of snow
tires. BTW, according to CR, the BFGoodrich Control T/A
tires had better snow traction than the Dunlop Winter Sport
M2 tires C&D used in the test. Might have been entertaining
to repeat the test with the All Season tires. Where would it
leave the snow tire fans, if the T/A had been better?

Ed
  #37  
Old January 18th 05, 06:40 PM
C. E. White
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



fbloogyudsr wrote:
>
> "C. E. White" > wrote
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Which doesn't imply that you are correct in any way. I would suggest
> >> that the experiences of an automotive profession carries more weight
> >> than some d00d in usenet.

> >
> > I know little about snow tires and have never felt that I
> > needed any. I do however have an opinion of automobile
> > magazine authors. Elevating most of them to "automotive
> > profession<al>" is a little much. Maybe CSABA CSERE is a
> > great author and maybe he has driven a lot of cool cars, but
> > I imagine his area of expertise is not tire dynamics.

>
> If you had investigated further, you would discover that Csaba
> is an "MIT educated automotive engineer". Are you? If not,
> perhaps you should accede to his expert opinion.


I am not an MIT educated engineer, although I am an engineer
of some sort (and have been for 30 years). I did play
engineer in the automotive industry for about 4 months once,
until I decided I hated cold weather more than I liked
working in the automotive industry. Do you have a copy of
Mr. Csere's resume handy? It would be interesting to see
what he has actually done outside of the publishing
buisness. The term "Automotive Engineer" could mean almost
anything, from someone responsible for a team designing a
complete suspension system to the guy washing the car at the
test track. I don't doubt that Mr Csere is a brilliant and
accomplished engineer. And I can understand why you might
value his opinion higher than mine or others that play on
the interent. Still, when all is said and done, the article
quoted was clearly an opinion piece. No hard facts were
presented. No documented comparison referenced. Only Mr.
Csere's feelings were presented. I don't doubt that most
snow tires are an improvement on over most "regular" tires
when driving on snow. I do think it might be hard to prove
that any 2WD (particualry a RWD) vehicle on snow tires can
handle snow better than any 4WD or AWD vehicle on any
"regular" tires. If you want to put up the money for such a
study (say 5 million), I'm your man. I feel certain I could
design a good experiment to confirm or deny the hypothesis.
Only problem would be my dislike of cold weather. But for
the right money, I could overcome this objection.

> > The
> > particular article quoted was interesting, but seemed to be
> > little more than one man's opinion. The fact that his
> > opinion was printed in Car and Driver doesn't make it any
> > more valid than one man's opinion expressed through the
> > internet. The whole article smacked of a Tire Rack article
> > designed to sell snow tires.

>
> If you have actually read C&D for a while, you would know
> that they actually test things that they talk about. For instance,
> a couple of years ago they tested snow tires and DSC, etc.
> The tables are easy to read, even for non-technical persons.


I used to read C&D religiously (and R&T as well). However,
most of their "tests" are too close to commercials
(particularly the road tests). Their tests are interesting,
but often not particualrly scientific. They are just about
as credible as the "Myth Busters" on the Discovery Channel.
Entertaining, interesting, stimulating, but hardly the best
designed tests around. I am not a big fan of Consumer
Reports - at least when it comes to opinions and surveys,
but I do trust their test methods more than C&D or R&T. They
have their own track, buy their own test specimans, and at
least understand how to run a decent test. Sometimes they
have been know to do things I don't agree with (like
changing a test procedure in the middle of a test), but in
generally they are honest about it. I looked at their
ratings for snow versus all season tires, and at least
according to their data, it appears that some all season
tires are better in the snow than some snow tires. For
instance, BFGoodrich Control T/A had a better snow traction
rating than Michelin Artic Alpin tires. The Car and Driver
test that "proved" that snow tires are more import than AWD
("What Price Traction?" May 1999) is no longer available
from C&D's web site, but a copy is available at
(
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc...ex.php/t-50930).
This article and their latter article comparing performance
and snow tires on several AWD vehicles
(http://www.caranddriver.com/article....age_numb er=1)
are flawed. They comapred one particualr type of snow tires
(Bridgestone Blizzak in one test, Dunlop Winter Sport M2 in
the other) to the OE tires provided with the vehicles. All
this proves is that the Bridgestones or Dunlops are better
in the snow than the particualr OE tires on the cars. It
doesn't prove anything general when you are comparing all
season or performace tires to snow tires on all vehicles. In
the more recent test, I was suprised by how little the
advantage really was given the inherent bias of the test.
The avarage snow tire's advantage over the 1.8 mile corse
was less than 8%. Hardly seems likel a slam dunk
recommendation for the snow tires. If you beleive the CR
test, there is more than an 8% difference in brands of snow
tires. BTW, according to CR, the BFGoodrich Control T/A
tires had better snow traction than the Dunlop Winter Sport
M2 tires C&D used in the test. Might have been entertaining
to repeat the test with the All Season tires. Where would it
leave the snow tire fans, if the T/A had been better?

Ed
  #38  
Old January 18th 05, 08:09 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


C. E. White wrote:

-snip-

> I don't doubt that most
> snow tires are an improvement on over most "regular" tires
> when driving on snow. I do think it might be hard to prove
> that any 2WD (particualry a RWD) vehicle on snow tires can
> handle snow better than any 4WD or AWD vehicle on any
> "regular" tires.


If by "regular" you mean "no (all)-season", then it might be a wash -
AWD vs. 2WD-with-snows.

But plenty of AWD cars run performance rubber. Summer rubber. And
summer rubber does not work on snow, AWD or not.

Dave C. was making the claim that AWD is the solution, period. It
isn't. Period.


> If you want to put up the money for such a
> study (say 5 million), I'm your man. I feel certain I could
> design a good experiment to confirm or deny the hypothesis.
> Only problem would be my dislike of cold weather. But for
> the right money, I could overcome this objection.


The tests in the magazine provide decent internally-consistent data.
FWD with snows beats the AWD on no-seasons in skidpad, braking and
slalom. AWD beats FWD in all aspects on hillclimb, and acceleration
from rest. And it makes sense from a mass/friction standpoint as well.

While I would say the tests are not scientific, they are better than
WAGs and declarative statements without ANY data backing.

> (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc...ex.php/t-50930).


Read the numbers for drivetrain layout vs. tire vs. test run.

>

(http://www.caranddriver.com/article....age_numb er=1)


> BTW, according to CR, the BFGoodrich Control T/A
> tires had better snow traction than the Dunlop Winter Sport
> M2 tires C&D used in the test. Might have been entertaining
> to repeat the test with the All Season tires. Where would it
> leave the snow tire fans, if the T/A had been better?


Wanting a better snow tire than the pathetic Dunlops? Like Hakas?
Just like there are crap summer tires (as Dave points out), there are
also crap winter tires. The fact that some superb no-seasons best the
crappy snows does not mean that decent snow tires couldn't be
head-and-shoulders above the superb no-seasons.

And there is the non-scientific, but significant, subjective "feel" of
the car on winter rubber in the snow. There is a qualitative
difference in how the car reacts to inputs. Just because it's not
measured doesn't mean it has no relevance.

HAND,

E.P.

  #39  
Old January 18th 05, 08:09 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


C. E. White wrote:

-snip-

> I don't doubt that most
> snow tires are an improvement on over most "regular" tires
> when driving on snow. I do think it might be hard to prove
> that any 2WD (particualry a RWD) vehicle on snow tires can
> handle snow better than any 4WD or AWD vehicle on any
> "regular" tires.


If by "regular" you mean "no (all)-season", then it might be a wash -
AWD vs. 2WD-with-snows.

But plenty of AWD cars run performance rubber. Summer rubber. And
summer rubber does not work on snow, AWD or not.

Dave C. was making the claim that AWD is the solution, period. It
isn't. Period.


> If you want to put up the money for such a
> study (say 5 million), I'm your man. I feel certain I could
> design a good experiment to confirm or deny the hypothesis.
> Only problem would be my dislike of cold weather. But for
> the right money, I could overcome this objection.


The tests in the magazine provide decent internally-consistent data.
FWD with snows beats the AWD on no-seasons in skidpad, braking and
slalom. AWD beats FWD in all aspects on hillclimb, and acceleration
from rest. And it makes sense from a mass/friction standpoint as well.

While I would say the tests are not scientific, they are better than
WAGs and declarative statements without ANY data backing.

> (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc...ex.php/t-50930).


Read the numbers for drivetrain layout vs. tire vs. test run.

>

(http://www.caranddriver.com/article....age_numb er=1)


> BTW, according to CR, the BFGoodrich Control T/A
> tires had better snow traction than the Dunlop Winter Sport
> M2 tires C&D used in the test. Might have been entertaining
> to repeat the test with the All Season tires. Where would it
> leave the snow tire fans, if the T/A had been better?


Wanting a better snow tire than the pathetic Dunlops? Like Hakas?
Just like there are crap summer tires (as Dave points out), there are
also crap winter tires. The fact that some superb no-seasons best the
crappy snows does not mean that decent snow tires couldn't be
head-and-shoulders above the superb no-seasons.

And there is the non-scientific, but significant, subjective "feel" of
the car on winter rubber in the snow. There is a qualitative
difference in how the car reacts to inputs. Just because it's not
measured doesn't mean it has no relevance.

HAND,

E.P.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
94 Toyota HELP Needed! [email protected] 4x4 0 June 7th 04 12:07 AM
Hino *hybride* 240pk diesel in new Toyota fullsize pickup (USA) Willem-Jan Markerink 4x4 14 April 2nd 04 06:48 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.