Gasoline sold at higher temperatures without adjustments cost consumers

This article points out that consumers may be short changed by fuel
pumps that do not compensate for fuel sold above 60 degrees, which is a
historical standard. Gasoline volume expands with higher temperature
(density goes down), but your engine gets its energy from mass, not
volume. In other words, a gallon of hot gas won't get you quite as far
as a gallon of cold gas, even though they'll take up the same room in
your gas tank (and in the gas pump meter).

I always figured that fuel stored underground for any length of time
would be pretty close to ground temperature, unless you buy fuel shortly
after the underground tank is refilled, but this article seems to claim
otherwise for warmer climates. Perhaps the people that say to buy fuel
in the morning when temps are usually at the lowest for the day aren't
making that bad of a point, although it's probably still very negligible
for most fill-ups. Probably the only truly fair way to do it (besides
using temperature compensating pumps) would be to sell by mass, but that
is probably just not feasible. I believe household natural gas meters
are calibrated to a certain temperature. Now with gas prices high,
these formerly neglible differences are being looked at lot more
closely.

Article from Kansas City Star and via other Knight - Ridder papers too.

State probes 'hot' fuel sales
The California attorney general's office has launched an investigation
of gas stations and truck stops selling "hot" fuel to consumers without
making adjustments for changes in fuel volume.

Tom Dressler, a spokesman for Attorney General Bill Lockyer, said Monday
that his office will investigate whether any state laws or regulations
were broken. The attorney general also plans to recommend how the
problem can be fixed.

The action comes in response to a story from The Kansas City Star, which
also appeared in Sunday's Star-Telegram, describing how gasoline and
diesel retailers profit from selling fuel that is hotter than the
60-degree standard agreed to by the industry and government regulators
nearly a century ago.

Drawing on a fuel-temperature database compiled by a federal agency, and
adjusting for state-by-state fuel temperatures and consumption patterns,
The Star estimated that hot fuel costs U.S. consumers $2.3 billion a
year. The financial cost to consumers in California, which uses more
gasoline than any other state, was $500 million.

The Star's series also described methods that could be used to address
the problem.

In Hawaii, for example, the state requires that retailers dispense 234
cubic inches per gallon, rather than the 231 cubic inches per gallon
dispensed in the rest of country, to compensate for hot fuel. The state
assumes its fuel is sold at an average temperature of 80 degrees, 20
degrees above the standard.

In Texas, fuel tanks average 78 degrees, according to the National
Institute of Standards and Technology.
....
The American Petroleum Institute, which represents the oil industry, has
argued that the hot-fuel problem is "negligible" and not worth fixing,
citing the high cost of retrofitting the country's gas and diesel pumps.
The API said that consumers would be confused by fuel dispensers that
adjust the volume of fuel pumped for temperature variation.

Dressler said the attorney general rejected the notion that U.S.
consumers would get confused by purchasing gas adjusted for temperature.

"Our consumers are just as smart as those north of the border," he said.

full article http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15387515.htm

John S wrote:
> This article points out that consumers may be short changed by fuel
> pumps that do not compensate for fuel sold above 60 degrees, which is a
> historical standard. Gasoline volume expands with higher temperature
> (density goes down), but your engine gets its energy from mass, not
> volume. In other words, a gallon of hot gas won't get you quite as far
> as a gallon of cold gas, even though they'll take up the same room in
> your gas tank (and in the gas pump meter).
>
> I always figured that fuel stored underground for any length of time
> would be pretty close to ground temperature, unless you buy fuel shortly
> after the underground tank is refilled, but this article seems to claim
> otherwise for warmer climates. Perhaps the people that say to buy fuel
> in the morning when temps are usually at the lowest for the day aren't
> making that bad of a point, although it's probably still very negligible
> for most fill-ups. Probably the only truly fair way to do it (besides
> using temperature compensating pumps) would be to sell by mass, but that
> is probably just not feasible. I believe household natural gas meters
> are calibrated to a certain temperature. Now with gas prices high,
> these formerly neglible differences are being looked at lot more
> closely.
>
> Article from Kansas City Star and via other Knight - Ridder papers too.
>
> State probes 'hot' fuel sales
> The California attorney general's office has launched an investigation
> of gas stations and truck stops selling "hot" fuel to consumers without
> making adjustments for changes in fuel volume.
>
> Tom Dressler, a spokesman for Attorney General Bill Lockyer, said Monday
> that his office will investigate whether any state laws or regulations
> were broken. The attorney general also plans to recommend how the
> problem can be fixed.
>
> The action comes in response to a story from The Kansas City Star, which
> also appeared in Sunday's Star-Telegram, describing how gasoline and
> diesel retailers profit from selling fuel that is hotter than the
> 60-degree standard agreed to by the industry and government regulators
> nearly a century ago.
>
> Drawing on a fuel-temperature database compiled by a federal agency, and
> adjusting for state-by-state fuel temperatures and consumption patterns,
> The Star estimated that hot fuel costs U.S. consumers $2.3 billion a
> year. The financial cost to consumers in California, which uses more
> gasoline than any other state, was $500 million.
>
> The Star's series also described methods that could be used to address
> the problem.
>
> In Hawaii, for example, the state requires that retailers dispense 234
> cubic inches per gallon, rather than the 231 cubic inches per gallon
> dispensed in the rest of country, to compensate for hot fuel. The state
> assumes its fuel is sold at an average temperature of 80 degrees, 20
> degrees above the standard.
>
> In Texas, fuel tanks average 78 degrees, according to the National
> Institute of Standards and Technology.
> ....
> The American Petroleum Institute, which represents the oil industry, has
> argued that the hot-fuel problem is "negligible" and not worth fixing,
> citing the high cost of retrofitting the country's gas and diesel pumps.
> The API said that consumers would be confused by fuel dispensers that
> adjust the volume of fuel pumped for temperature variation.
>
> Dressler said the attorney general rejected the notion that U.S.
> consumers would get confused by purchasing gas adjusted for temperature.
>
> "Our consumers are just as smart as those north of the border," he said.
>
> full article http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15387515.htm

High cost of retrofitting? The average cost to a station is $3,000.

http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/3428

Looks like the big oil companies are trying to pull a fast one here...
again.

In article >, John S > wrote:
>Article from Kansas City Star and via other Knight - Ridder papers too.
>
>State probes 'hot' fuel sales
>The California attorney general's office has launched an investigation
>of gas stations and truck stops selling "hot" fuel to consumers without
>making adjustments for changes in fuel volume.
>
>In Hawaii, for example, the state requires that retailers dispense 234
>cubic inches per gallon, rather than the 231 cubic inches per gallon
>dispensed in the rest of country, to compensate for hot fuel.

So we're talking about a difference of 1% from the national
average to the hottest state. I DON'T CARE if the effective
price of gas changes by 1%. The regulators should go find
something more useful to do. Actually, they should resign
because they have run out of useful things to do.

Can Alaskan gas stations dispense only 225 cubic inches per
"gallon" because they are selling it chilled?

--
John Carr )

Well, the individual consumer buying a tankful of gas doesn't really
care, but a systematic error of 1% adds up to a considerable amount of
money for *somebody.* See also the close attention that pump
designers and state weights-and-measures inspectors usually pay to the
accuracy and honesty of the mechanism.

It'd be interesting to use a thermometer on the gas nozzle. My
distinct impression is that it usually *feels* nice and cool on a hot
day. Jibes with one's experience that caverns and caves in temperate
zones are usually in the 50s to 60s F, basements are often cool places
on a hot day, etc.

How do the people making this claim about gasoline account for days
*colder* than standard, though? Does it kinda average out over the
course of the year for the people up and down the supply chain
(neglecting variations in price during that time), or is there some
consistent residual error (again, neglecting price)?

--Joe

"John S" > wrote in message ...
> This article points out that consumers may be short changed by fuel
> pumps that do not compensate for fuel sold above 60 degrees, which is a
> historical standard. Gasoline volume expands with higher temperature
> (density goes down), but your engine gets its energy from mass, not
> volume. In other words, a gallon of hot gas won't get you quite as far
> as a gallon of cold gas, even though they'll take up the same room in
> your gas tank (and in the gas pump meter).
>

Interesting theory. However, you the consumer pay for a "Gallon" of fuel
regardless of it's density.
So at 3:00 AM in the morning you buy 10 gals of fuel, use that up by 3:00 PM
and pay for only 9.9 gallons.
How many people would even notice that they got shortchanged a 1/10th of a
gallon? Or even if was only 8 gallons?
Your fuel gauge shows the tank is full all day long and that's all you care
about.

Ad absurdum per aspera wrote: <brevity snip>
> Well, the individual consumer buying a tankful of gas doesn't really
> care, but a systematic error of 1% adds up to a considerable amount of
> money for *somebody.*
> It'd be interesting to use a thermometer on the gas nozzle.
>
> How do the people making this claim about gasoline account for days
> *colder* than standard, though? Does it kinda average out over the
> course of the year for the people up and down the supply chain
> (neglecting variations in price during that time), or is there some
> consistent residual error (again, neglecting price)?

Truckers have been aware of this issue for some time.
http://www.ooida.com/Documents/Press.../hot_fuel.html

It doesn't make much difference to the average 4-wheeler but when
you're burning 500g+ per week it adds up pretty quick.
-----

- gpsman

"John F. Carr" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, John S > wrote:
>>Article from Kansas City Star and via other Knight - Ridder papers too.
>>
>>State probes 'hot' fuel sales
>>The California attorney general's office has launched an investigation
>>of gas stations and truck stops selling "hot" fuel to consumers without
>>making adjustments for changes in fuel volume.
>>
>>In Hawaii, for example, the state requires that retailers dispense 234
>>cubic inches per gallon, rather than the 231 cubic inches per gallon
>>dispensed in the rest of country, to compensate for hot fuel.
>
> So we're talking about a difference of 1% from the national
> average to the hottest state. I DON'T CARE if the effective
> price of gas changes by 1%. The regulators should go find
> something more useful to do. Actually, they should resign
> because they have run out of useful things to do.
>
> Can Alaskan gas stations dispense only 225 cubic inches per
> "gallon" because they are selling it chilled?
>

While in Laredo Texas they can dispense 324 cubic inches per gallon eh?

"John S" > wrote in message ...
> This article points out that consumers may be short changed by fuel
> pumps that do not compensate for fuel sold above 60 degrees, which is a
> historical standard. Gasoline volume expands with higher temperature
> (density goes down), but your engine gets its energy from mass, not
> volume. In other words, a gallon of hot gas won't get you quite as far
> as a gallon of cold gas, even though they'll take up the same room in
> your gas tank (and in the gas pump meter).
>
> I always figured that fuel stored underground for any length of time
> would be pretty close to ground temperature, unless you buy fuel shortly
> after the underground tank is refilled, but this article seems to claim
> otherwise for warmer climates. Perhaps the people that say to buy fuel
> in the morning when temps are usually at the lowest for the day aren't
> making that bad of a point, although it's probably still very negligible
> for most fill-ups. Probably the only truly fair way to do it (besides
> using temperature compensating pumps) would be to sell by mass, but that
> is probably just not feasible. I believe household natural gas meters
> are calibrated to a certain temperature. Now with gas prices high,
> these formerly neglible differences are being looked at lot more
> closely.
>
> Article from Kansas City Star and via other Knight - Ridder papers too.
>
> State probes 'hot' fuel sales
> The California attorney general's office has launched an investigation
> of gas stations and truck stops selling "hot" fuel to consumers without
> making adjustments for changes in fuel volume.
>
> Tom Dressler, a spokesman for Attorney General Bill Lockyer, said Monday
> that his office will investigate whether any state laws or regulations
> were broken. The attorney general also plans to recommend how the
> problem can be fixed.
>
> The action comes in response to a story from The Kansas City Star, which
> also appeared in Sunday's Star-Telegram, describing how gasoline and
> diesel retailers profit from selling fuel that is hotter than the
> 60-degree standard agreed to by the industry and government regulators
> nearly a century ago.
>
> Drawing on a fuel-temperature database compiled by a federal agency, and
> adjusting for state-by-state fuel temperatures and consumption patterns,
> The Star estimated that hot fuel costs U.S. consumers $2.3 billion a
> year. The financial cost to consumers in California, which uses more
> gasoline than any other state, was $500 million.
>
> The Star's series also described methods that could be used to address
> the problem.
>
> In Hawaii, for example, the state requires that retailers dispense 234
> cubic inches per gallon, rather than the 231 cubic inches per gallon
> dispensed in the rest of country, to compensate for hot fuel. The state
> assumes its fuel is sold at an average temperature of 80 degrees, 20
> degrees above the standard.
>
> In Texas, fuel tanks average 78 degrees, according to the National
> Institute of Standards and Technology.
> ....
> The American Petroleum Institute, which represents the oil industry, has
> argued that the hot-fuel problem is "negligible" and not worth fixing,
> citing the high cost of retrofitting the country's gas and diesel pumps.
> The API said that consumers would be confused by fuel dispensers that
> adjust the volume of fuel pumped for temperature variation.
>
> Dressler said the attorney general rejected the notion that U.S.
> consumers would get confused by purchasing gas adjusted for temperature.
>
> "Our consumers are just as smart as those north of the border," he said.
>
> full article http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15387515.htm
>
>

Another thought. You design a container to hold precisely 231 cubic inches
of diesel fuel.
Pump the fuel into the containter. Check the meter reading. Does it show
precisely 1 gallon?
If it reads low, you're getting hot fuel.

The container size could be like 6"x6"x6.5" which yields the 234 cubic
inches.

In article .com>,
gpsman > wrote:
>Truckers have been aware of this issue for some time.
>http://www.ooida.com/Documents/Press.../hot_fuel.html

Quoting from that page:
"retailers dispensing "hot" fuel can actually sell more
fuel - 3 percent more for every 40 degrees above the 60
degree industry benchmark - and collect and keep 3
percent more in fuel taxes from consumers than they paid
at the wholesale level."

In Massachusetts retailers are required to turn over to
the state all money collected as a sales tax, even if
the amount collected is too high.

--
John Carr )

> > Dressler said the attorney general rejected the notion that U.S.
> > consumers would get confused by purchasing gas adjusted for temperature.
> >
> > "Our consumers are just as smart as those north of the border," he said.
> >
> > full article http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15387515.htm
>
> High cost of retrofitting? The average cost to a station is $3,000.
>
> http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/3428
>
> Looks like the big oil companies are trying to pull a fast one here...
> again.

Ridiculous. The std temp is 60 degrees. They win on anything above
60F, but lose on anything below 60F.