question re timing belt change for subaru legacy wagon 92, ASAP please?

Hi all,
I'm considering buying a 1992 Subaru Legacy AWD Wagon. It's priced WAY
below blue book value, and has been well-maintained but there's about
100k on the timing belt. I have to decide tomorrow, though.
How big a job is swapping it out on this model? I have tools, space, and
(some) time to do it, the belt itself is around $35.00 tops locally,
but my time IS worth something. If this is one of those damn cars where
you have to pull the engine practically to swap the belt, I don't know
if I want to deal with it. I can pick up a Chilton's for this model
anywhere around here, by the way.
Will the belt breaking on this car fry the motor? I have had belts break
before, and the car just stops. OTOH, i have read recently about someone
with an 'interference' motor (I don't know what that is) and if the belt
breaks, the motor's in trouble. This is just a 4 cyl, 5 spd, manual,
SOHC(I think- don't recall seing DOHC for that model) car. nothing fancy.
TIA,
k wallace
cross posted to alt.autos, rec.autos.misc, rec.autos.tech.

change the belt and cure your carnack foresee problem

wrote:
> change the belt and cure your carnack foresee problem
>
WTF does that mean? If I buy it yes I'm going to change the belt.
Cure my what?
k wallace

k wallace wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm considering buying a 1992 Subaru Legacy AWD Wagon. It's priced WAY
> below blue book value, and has been well-maintained but there's about
> 100k on the timing belt. I have to decide tomorrow, though.
> How big a job is swapping it out on this model? I have tools, space, and
> (some) time to do it, the belt itself is around $35.00 tops locally,
> but my time IS worth something. If this is one of those damn cars where
> you have to pull the engine practically to swap the belt, I don't know
> if I want to deal with it. I can pick up a Chilton's for this model
> anywhere around here, by the way.
> Will the belt breaking on this car fry the motor? I have had belts break
> before, and the car just stops. OTOH, i have read recently about someone
> with an 'interference' motor (I don't know what that is) and if the belt
> breaks, the motor's in trouble. This is just a 4 cyl, 5 spd, manual,
> SOHC(I think- don't recall seing DOHC for that model) car. nothing fancy.
> TIA,
> k wallace
> cross posted to alt.autos, rec.autos.misc, rec.autos.tech.

Wallace,

This is a fairly simple job. If you are going to change the timing
belt, you should consider changing the water pump as well as the cam
and crank seals while you are at it. To change the belt you only have
to take out the radiator fans, although only 4 screws hold the radiator
in, so you could figure the engine could use a complete flush and
without the radiator you have a whole lot more room to work. The most
difficult task is taking off the crank pulley bolt and then the
camshaft pulleys if you decide to replace the crank seals. I removed
and resealed the oil pump on mine as well, but that is not neccessary,
but does make it easier to get at the crank oil seal. To remove the
crank pulley bolt you need to buy the special subaru tool or use a
chain wrench to lock the pulley. If the car is a manual put it in
gear, apply the brake, and heave your breaker bar. With and auto you
need to hold the crank pulley or lock the flywheel. The bolt on my
manual was on so tight that it caused the clutch to slip with the
breaker bar. I used the following technique quite cautiously. Put
22mm socket on the pulley bolt and wedge the breaker bar in the frame.
(if you looking at the engine standing in front of the car you will
want to wedge the breaker bar on the right). Pull the connector for
the ignitor or the coil wires to keep the engine from starting and give
the engine a quick crank. From what I understand many technicians use
this technique. Make sure you buy timing belt that has the timing
marks on the belt. You will have to remove the hydraulic tensioner and
compress it with a vise (you hold it compressed with a small allen
wrench that fits through the holes & compress it very slowly). You
will also have to remove the lower idler pulley to get the belt back
on. Make sure you very verify that the belt was put on properly by
aligning with the small notches on the cam sprocket and the notch just
above the crank sprocket. (do not use the arrows on the cam pulleys,
these identify piston location, not timing). Any repair manual will
also show you the proper teeth count between the left/right cam pulleys
and the crank pulley. Make sure you do this count before you put it
back together. Your EJ22 engine is non-interference so you dont have
to work about rotating the cam shafts once the belt is off. If you
decide to replace the cam belts you will need the special tool to
remove the sprockets just a make a strap wrench with a segment of the
old timing belt and a pair of vise grips. For re-assembly I used
Medium strength permatex (blue) and tigthened to factory specs. People
seemed paranoid that the crank pulley will come loose and tighten them
to upward of 200+ foot pounds. I replaced the cam seals, crank seal,
new water pump (~$70)resealed the oil pump with permatex 599 super
grey, new timing belt, radiator flush, new thermastat/gasket,
oil/filter change and new drive belt for about $150. It took me a the
better part of a single day, but alot of that work was cleaning the
mess from the failed crank seal that leaked oil everywhere. Just
e-mail me if you have any specific questions.

"k wallace" wrote:
>Hi all,
>I’m considering buying a 1992 Subaru Legacy AWD Wagon.
>It’s priced WAY
>below blue book value, and has been well-maintained but there’s
>about
>100k on the timing belt. I have to decide tomorrow, though.
>How big a job is swapping it out on this model? I have tools, space,
>and
> (some) time to do it, the belt itself is around .00 tops locally,
>
>but my time IS worth something. If this is one of those damn cars
>where
>you have to pull the engine practically to swap the belt, I
>don’t know
>if I want to deal with it. I can pick up a Chilton’s for this
>model
>anywhere around here, by the way.
>Will the belt breaking on this car fry the motor? I have had belts
>break
>before, and the car just stops. OTOH, i have read recently about
>someone
>with an ’interference’ motor (I don’t know what that
>is) and if the belt
>breaks, the motor’s in trouble. This is just a 4 cyl, 5 spd,
>manual,
>SOHC(I think- don’t recall seing DOHC for that model) car.
>nothing fancy.
>TIA,
>k wallace
> cross posted to alt.autos, rec.autos.misc, rec.autos.tech.

It is not a interferance motor and if you are mechanically inclined
and can follow a manual, it is not a hatefull job to do. One word of
caution though, new belts tend to stretch, even the ones that are not
supposed to so run it enough to warm it up fully then let it cool and
recheck belt tension and then button it up.

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writes:

>This is a fairly simple job. If you are going to change the timing
>belt, you should consider changing the water pump as well as the cam
>and crank seals while you are at it.

Belt tensioner/idler, thermostat and hoses are also a good idea while you are
in there. I don't know if hydraulic tensioners lose their "spring" or not.
But pulley bearings do wear out.

>want to wedge the breaker bar on the right). Pull the connector for
>the ignitor or the coil wires to keep the engine from starting and give
>the engine a quick crank. From what I understand many technicians use
>this technique.

I can vouch for this. Just make sure you do not have left hand threads
if you try this on a different car.

>on. Make sure you very verify that the belt was put on properly by
>aligning with the small notches on the cam sprocket and the notch just
>above the crank sprocket.

And turn over the motor at least twice by hand to check for interference.
Yeah, it's supposed to be non-interference. Never hurts to check. While doing
that you can look at the gears and make sure there is no play in the belt.

>old timing belt and a pair of vise grips. For re-assembly I used
>Medium strength permatex (blue) and tigthened to factory specs. People
>seemed paranoid that the crank pulley will come loose and tighten them
>to upward of 200+ foot pounds.

Red loctite on the crank bolt is a better idea than overtorquing if paranoia is
necessary. The last thing you want to do is damage the crank nose threads.

If you do the oil pump, recommend cranking the motor with coil disconnected
until oil light goes out, to avoid a dry start. Also, after flushing and
refilling your radiator, "burp" it by letting it run open loop for a while and
then letting it cool off: when cool, remove radiator cap and fill to the top;
repeat until the level does not go down after the motor has been run.

> If you do the oil pump, recommend cranking the motor with coil disconnected
> until oil light goes out, to avoid a dry start. Also, after flushing and
> refilling your radiator, "burp" it by letting it run open loop for a while and
> then letting it cool off: when cool, remove radiator cap and fill to the top;
> repeat until the level does not go down after the motor has been run.
>
what does running the radiator 'open loop' mean?

thanks for all the advice. I am fairly mechanically inclined and have no
trouble following a manual (I'm an engineer, have followed way more
complicated instructions than a car manual). If I buy the car today, I
will be picking up a timing belt and Chilton's on the way home.
thanks,
k wallace

Wallace,

Here is a web document that should help. At least the pictures will
let you know what you are looking for

endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2Liter.pdf

wrote:
> Wallace,
>
> Here is a web document that should help. At least the pictures will
> let you know what you are looking for
>
> endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2Liter.pdf
>

Sounds like you know this make/model- something I recently read about
interference engines is that most cars with two valves per cylinder are
non-interference, while cars with 4 valves per cyl. ARE interference.
This subaru legacy 1992 is a 16-valve (so, 4 per cylinder).
I'm just going to have to pick up the manual tomorrow, but is the one
that you changed the timing belt on also a 16-valve? And it's a
non-interference engine?
Why would anyone use the interference design? It doesn't sound like it
increases performance. It just sounds like (from the bit of reading i've
done today) that you can make the engine physically smaller and get the
same power out of it. Is that right?
If I find that this IS an interference engine, I don't think i even want
to drive it until I change the timing belt. If it's not, I'll still do
it, but I won't be paranoid about it, as the car will just stop if the
belt were to break.
thanks again,
k wallace

All the 2.5L DOHC subie engines are interference. The 2.2L was non
interference until 1996 at which point it is a bit hazy as to exactly
when the interference design was brought in. Yes most SOHC engines are
2 or 3 valves per cylinder, but the subie went with 4. I admitt that I
sure like the idea of a non interference engine, but with the DOHC it
is a bit tough to pack everything in without utilizing an interference
design. Regarding the use of DOHC arguments can go either way, but
valve float can be minimized more easily in the DOHC design (as
oppossed to using very stiff springs in the SOFC), valve placement and
angle can be better optimized, and further the use of DOHC allows the
spark plug to be centered in the combustion chamber which can improve
flame propagation. Yes the difference could be quite small in the
scheme of things unless you lean towards racing performance. The good
news is that with the current timing belts that use curvilinear teeth,
timing belts intervals have been upped to 100K, but even then as long
as you have no oil or antifreeze leak issues your belt will probably
hold out for a while yet. Regarding the valves issue indeed the
original 2.2L engines had 16 valves, however, the cylinder was designed
with clearance between the valves and piston. I do not believe there
is any rule that 4 valves per cylinder indicates interference. The
1990 - 1994 engines are without a doubt non-interference type. If you
had an outback with the 2.2L in 1995 you should be ok as well, but
after that use caution. I spun my camshafts several times in my 1992
Subaru Legacy AWD manual looking for the timing marks with no problems.
If you are worried just change the belt ASAP and spin the cam shaft
real carefully. Although to the untrained, the force of the valve
springs could feel like some sort of interference.