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2000 Concorde LXi Tranmission



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 9th 05, 08:35 PM
John Gregory
external usenet poster
 
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There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid
here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change
is necessary. The dealer claims - after checking the fluid - no change is
necessary.

I can understand the position one might take if they have changed fluid over
the years with no incidence of trans failure. However, that fact alone -
particularly in view of recommendation from the manufacture NOT to change -
doesn't serve as proof that changing fluid prevents failure. The same
results may have occurred without the changes.

On the other hand, it may be like chicken soup as a remedy for the common;
it can't hurt. That being the case...

Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself,
check the magnet, and replace the filter?

Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think
I did for the '95 Concorde I had)

Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and
drained? (Assuming the pan is the only thing I could drop reasonably)
"Bob Shuman" > wrote in message
...
>I have 4 of these same/very similar Chrysler electronic transmissions in a
> 1991 Mitsubishi 300GT (130K miles) 1996 Eagle Vision (75K miles) , 1999
> T&C
> Minivan (64K miles), and 2001 Dodge Intrepid (40K miles). I have dropped
> the pans and changed all these vehicles transmission fluid (use the
> correct
> ATF+3/4 fluid) and filter on 30-36K mile intervals and all are still
> performing just like when they were new. I am still amazed at the shift
> quality in the 14.5 year old 3000GT every time I drive it! I know that
> dropping the pan does not get all the fluid, but believe that this
> approach
> is much better than the "power flush" recommended at the dealer. I
> personally have seen the gunk in the trans pan and the filings on the
> magnet
> and know these will not come out using the power flush method. I also
> believe in replacing the filter since it can only clog and restrict fluid
> pressure over time.
>
> With regard to the speed sensors, I doubt both were actually defective.
> From what you had described, I would have guessed the output sensor was
> bad.
> I've replaced three of these over the years on the vehicles listed above
> and
> previous Chryslers as well. About two years back the part cost me about
> $25
> or so dollars at the local dealer. Access was a breeze if you can get
> under
> the vehicle and it took about 10 minutes to remove the electrical
> connector
> , unscrew the part using a simple wrench and then screw in the replacement
> and re-connect the connector. I personally do not see the value in the
> price you paid, but then again, you might not have the tools or the
> inclination so $200 to fix it may well be worth it to you.
>
> Bob
>
> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
>> maxpower wrote:
>>
>> > "John Gregory" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed
>> >>me
>> >
>> > for
>> >
>> >>2 hours labor. Told me there was no need to worry about the
>> >>transmission
>> >>fluid; new, improved and designed to withstand the temperatures of
>> >>hell.
>> >>They also did a safety bulletin repair for two seat bolts so they got

> paid
>> >>by Chrysler for that as well.
>> >>
>> >>Did I get rooked?
>> >>

>>
>> > Yup a little steep with the labor

>>
>> Yeah - I'd like to get paid for 2 hours for 30 minutes work. Where do I
>> sign up! I'd at least tell them to knock it back to book rate - and ask
>> them to explain why they take that long to do a 30 minute job.
>>
>> You really should change the fluid and filter regardless of what they
>> say. Every 80k miles would be reasonable. DIY for cost of fluid and
>> filter and 2 hours time, and get a thorough changeout of fluid in the
>> bargain - not less than half from a pan drop.
>>
>> Bill Putney
>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>> adddress with the letter 'x')

>
>



Ads
  #22  
Old March 9th 05, 08:59 PM
aarcuda69062
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Default

In article >,
"John Gregory" > wrote:

> Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed me for
> 2 hours labor. Told me there was no need to worry about the transmission
> fluid; new, improved and designed to withstand the temperatures of hell.
> They also did a safety bulletin repair for two seat bolts so they got paid
> by Chrysler for that as well.
>
> Did I get rooked?


Nope.

Labor time is;
diagnose 1.0 hrs
replace input speed sensor .5 hrs
replace output speed sensor .5 hrs
  #23  
Old March 9th 05, 09:04 PM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"John Gregory" > wrote:

> Out of curiosity, I phoned another large Chrysler dealer to get an estimate
> of this repair. $249! If the part costs $65 and they billed by "the book",
> that means labor runs $122.66 and hour. Can this be right?


Only if one makes certain assumptions and/or jumps to conclusions.

> Q1) Is there a book available at the library - or on line - that will give
> standard time for all repair jobs?


That would be up to an individual library system.
On line, I doubt it.

> I think it would be wise to be armed with this information before agreeing
> to a repair... not that I'm complaining about mine. I may have been clipped
> a little but the dealership has been fair with me in the past. And... if his
> competitor is any guide, my dealer actually gave me "a break".


The dealer charged exactly what the labor guide calls for.

> Q2) What is the going hourly rate for a Chrysler dealership repair these
> days?


Varies by region.
  #24  
Old March 9th 05, 09:40 PM
Daniel J. Stern
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On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, John Gregory wrote:

> There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid
> here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change
> is necessary.


The manual has claimed "No fluid change is necessary" for decades now. It
was OK to follow this suggestion in the days of the overengineered,
bulletproof Torqueflite transmissions. With the electronic transmissions,
it's difficult to change the fluid often enough.

> I can understand the position one might take if they have changed fluid
> over the years with no incidence of trans failure. However, that fact
> alone - particularly in view of recommendation from the manufacture NOT
> to change - doesn't serve as proof that changing fluid prevents failure.
> The same results may have occurred without the changes.


How lucky do you feel? Are you comfortable gambling the $2500 (plus or
minus) repair cost on this academic bit of sophistry?

> Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself,
> check the magnet, and replace the filter?


You don't, if that's the procedure you use. But that's OK, 'cause you
don't have to. The idea is fluid replenishment.

> Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think
> I did for the '95 Concorde I had)


No.

> Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and
> drained?


Don't worry about it, see Q3.

  #25  
Old March 9th 05, 10:53 PM
maxpower
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Gregory" > wrote in message
...
> Out of curiosity, I phoned another large Chrysler dealer to get an

estimate
> of this repair. $249! If the part costs $65 and they billed by "the book",
> that means labor runs $122.66 and hour. Can this be right?
>
> Q1) Is there a book available at the library - or on line - that will give
> standard time for all repair jobs?
>
> I think it would be wise to be armed with this information before agreeing
> to a repair... not that I'm complaining about mine. I may have been

clipped
> a little but the dealership has been fair with me in the past. And... if

his
> competitor is any guide, my dealer actually gave me "a break".
>
> Q2) What is the going hourly rate for a Chrysler dealership repair these
> days?
>
>
> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
> > maxpower wrote:
> >
> >> "John Gregory" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Welp... here's the outcome; $205.00! Replaced both sensors and billed

me
> >>
> >> for
> >>
> >>>2 hours labor. Told me there was no need to worry about the

transmission
> >>>fluid; new, improved and designed to withstand the temperatures of

hell.
> >>>They also did a safety bulletin repair for two seat bolts so they got
> >>>paid
> >>>by Chrysler for that as well.
> >>>
> >>>Did I get rooked?
> >>>

> >
> >> Yup a little steep with the labor

> >
> > Yeah - I'd like to get paid for 2 hours for 30 minutes work. Where do I
> > sign up! I'd at least tell them to knock it back to book rate - and ask
> > them to explain why they take that long to do a 30 minute job.
> >
> > You really should change the fluid and filter regardless of what they

say.
> > Every 80k miles would be reasonable. DIY for cost of fluid and filter

and
> > 2 hours time, and get a thorough changeout of fluid in the bargain - not
> > less than half from a pan drop.
> >
> > Bill Putney
> > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> > adddress with the letter 'x')

>

The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to
verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the
connectors to perform the test, therefore half the work was already done.
The book that AArcuda is referring too normally says test and replace, .5
for each sensor. He would be charging you an overlapping time of 1.0 hr.
( 1.5 is an average labor price and as I said on the high side)

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech


  #26  
Old March 10th 05, 12:42 AM
Bob Shuman
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Posts: n/a
Default

My answers to your questions are embedded below.

Bob

"John Gregory" > wrote in message
...
> There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission

fluid
> here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change
> is necessary. The dealer claims - after checking the fluid - no change is
> necessary.


This is indeed terue, but the early Chrysler FWD electronic transmissions
experiencesd a lot of early failures and word of mouth in this group seemed
to confirm that frequent changes coupled with additional fluid coolers
helped improve the life. I still follow this even though the product has
obviously been improved.

>
> I can understand the position one might take if they have changed fluid

over
> the years with no incidence of trans failure. However, that fact alone -
> particularly in view of recommendation from the manufacture NOT to

change -
> doesn't serve as proof that changing fluid prevents failure. The same
> results may have occurred without the changes.


Again, absolutely true. My philosphy has always been to do PREVENTIVE
maintenance where ever possible. You and everyone else are free to do
whatever you like.

> On the other hand, it may be like chicken soup as a remedy for the common;
> it can't hurt. That being the case...


Again, I agree. It can't hurt if done right.

> Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself,
> check the magnet, and replace the filter?


I do not get all the fluid out. I just get what I can and let it drain
overnight. I figure I get 5-6 quarts each time which is roughly speaking
about half.

> Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't

think
> I did for the '95 Concorde I had)


No special tools needed: A 3/8" ratchet and appropriate metric socket, some
extenders, possibly a swivel if there is a bracket in the way (I do not
think there was one, but each vehicle was different), a gasket scraper or
wire brush, some brake cleaner and a torque wrench to re-tighten the bolts.

> Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan

and
> drained? (Assuming the pan is the only thing I could drop reasonably)


See comment above. I do this to get the gunk out of the pan as there is
always residue there which I am assuming comes from the clutch material. I
also do this to change the filter as well. This just seems like good
practice to me as I would never change engine oil and leave in a dirty
filter even though this is what the OM says to do every 7500 miles. (I
change engine oil and filter religiously at 3K miles and have never had an
engine failure of any kind in over 30 years of driving.)



  #27  
Old March 10th 05, 01:36 AM
Bill Putney
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maxpower wrote:

> The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to
> verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the
> connectors to perform the test...


Not true. The fact that, along with the limp mode, the speedometer was
not working tells you with a fair degree of certainty that the output
sensor was bad.

I get the impression from some people that some dealers would not do
certain work, like replace a sensor, without doing and charging for a
diagnostic. Out of curiosity, if I walked into your dealership and said
"I am pretty certain that my output sensor is bad. If I agree to pay
your price for replacing the sensor and accept the possibility that that
isn't the problem, will you replace the output sensor without charging
me for a diagnostic test?" would they do that?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
  #28  
Old March 10th 05, 01:40 AM
Bill Putney
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Posts: n/a
Default

Bob Shuman wrote:

> ...I know that
> dropping the pan does not get all the fluid, but believe that this approach
> is much better than the "power flush" recommended at the dealer. I
> personally have seen the gunk in the trans pan and the filings on the magnet
> and know these will not come out using the power flush method...


Correct. That's the beauty of the DIY non-power flush method. Combined
with first dropping the pan to replace the filter, you then use the
tranny's own pump to pump the fluid at normal rates out of the cooler
return line. You get a 95+% fluid changeout, cleaned pan and magnet,
new filter, and non of the risks of the power flush at minimum cost.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
  #29  
Old March 10th 05, 01:59 AM
Bill Putney
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Posts: n/a
Default

John Gregory wrote:

> There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid
> here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change
> is necessary. The dealer claims - after checking the fluid - no change is
> necessary.


That may be true. However, I have read on forums of DC dealers refusing
to honor a warranty repair on a tranny because the fluid was not
changed. When the customer complained that their driving meets the
Schedule A conditions, the dealer claimed that they refuse to recognize
that Schedule A driving is possible and that they consider Schedule B
the only valid schedule - claim denied.

> ...Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself,
> check the magnet, and replace the filter?


Glad you asked. I posted this info. recently in another thread: "See
this thread on the 300M Enthusiasts forum to see how it's done (300M and
Concorde power trains and chassis are identical - in fact, the photos in
my post in that thread show where I spliced the cooler return line on my
Concorde for changing out the tranny fluid):
http://300mclub.100megs42.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6295&highlight=return+fluid".

Now - truth is, it is a dilution process, so it will never be 100% fluid
exchange. But if you use, say, 12 quarts of fluid in the flush, the
replacement will be 95+% complete (vs. 40% of a simple pan drop and add
fluid).

> Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think
> I did for the '95 Concorde I had)
>
> Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and
> drained? (Assuming the pan is the only thing I could drop reasonably)


System holds slightly less than 10 qts. Dropping the pan ends up
"wasting" 4 to 4-1/2 qts. You do the math. 8^)

Another method that is between the method that I posted above and simply
dropping the pan as far as effectiveness of fluid exchange is to drop
the pan (replace filter), close it up , fill with new fluid, drive for a
few miles, drop pan again, close up, fill with fresh fluid. WAG - about
70 to 75% effective exchange of old/new fluid.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
  #30  
Old March 10th 05, 02:09 AM
Bill Putney
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John Gregory wrote:

> Out of curiosity, I phoned another large Chrysler dealer to get an estimate
> of this repair. $249! If the part costs $65 and they billed by "the book",
> that means labor runs $122.66 and hour. Can this be right?


$65 is about what you can get *both* sensors (combined) for, every day,
all over the place. Thanks for posting all this stuff. It reminds me
of a big part of why I do as much of my own work as possible.

> I think it would be wise to be armed with this information before agreeing
> to a repair... not that I'm complaining about mine. I may have been clipped
> a little but the dealership has been fair with me in the past. And... if his
> competitor is any guide, my dealer actually gave me "a break".


Yeah - "I like *this* mugger over here better than that one over there
because this one only took my cash and not my credit cards too. I
really respect him because when he stabbed me, he didn't twist the
knife." 8^)

> Q2) What is the going hourly rate for a Chrysler dealership repair these
> days?


Apparently as much as they want it to be. Let's see - 30 minutes work
for $250 - I think that works out to about $500/hr. 8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
 




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