transponder key situation, but no key: Ford Explorer

<> wrote:
> IIRR, when they first came out with it.. TI who at that time
> made the chip was talking about 42? quadrillion codes without
> duplication.

Sounds like a 56-bit binary key (number), not a frequency operated thing.
Just a hunch.

--
All relevant people are pertinent.
All rude people are impertinent.
Therefore, no rude people are relevant.
-- Solomon W. Golomb

wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:51:06 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>
>>OK I follow you completely. wasn't there a law passed meaning the OEMs
>>had to expose such codes to the aftermarket industry. Im surprised they
>>can do this, or were they only coerced to release the OBDII info publicly?
>>
>>--
>>Thank you,
>
> the obdii tools ARE available if you got the bucks..
> GM's cost a shy 3 grand..
> another that will do several vehicles, is about $7,000, plus
> required updates-about $2 a day..
>

You can get the Actron code readers from autozone and probably amazon
from about $99 - $300.

> some are NOT available at all- the transponders are 'hard wired'
> onto the on board computer..replace computer and comes with 2 new
> keys.. (ask the price..LOL)
> --Shiva--
>
>

Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an
antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the
secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then
the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve
it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.

Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its
own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not
reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.



--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:57:36 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>GM uses PATS today. Did you mean to say otherwise? Its not like they
>>use standard terminology either. PATS is just 'passive anti theft
>>system.' I think GM calls it Passkey.
>>
>>--
>>Thank you,
>
> actually not.. GM uses PK3 transponders and PK3+ now.. several
> models..
> key blanks can run to $50 each.
> 6 years BACK they used PATS..but are now dropping it in a lot of
> models..
> a 2000 Cad used a PK3 key- then it depended on the vehicle
> --Shiva--
>
>

Yea Im confused. I dont know all of terminology. I thought PATs was a
general term for a passive anti theft system and passkey was GMs term.
I always called it PK3 or passkey.


--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:14 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>You can get the Actron code readers from autozone and probably amazon
>
>>from about $99 - $300.
>
>
> and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to
> do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
> those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an
>>antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the
>>secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then
>>the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve
>>it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.
>>
>
> never seen a module die yet..
> and the newer ones, the FIRST thing is erase the existing keys.,
> and then reload from scratch.
>
>
>
>>Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its
>>own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not
>>reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.
>
> -
>
>>Thank you,
>
> think its a one way thing.. key send its code-and if it matches
> whats stored,, then the car starts..
> --Shiva--
>
>
TI make both simple "electronic bar code" and challenge-response
type RFID chips take a look here for an interesting overveiw
http://rfidanalysis.org/.

wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:14 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>You can get the Actron code readers from autozone and probably amazon
>
>>from about $99 - $300.
>
>
> and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to
> do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
> those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
>

Well you will never be able to reprogram a part. Thats recall type of
stuff only the Dealer will do. But OBDII does allow more than just
reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not
just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate
than you do for the one that just reads.

>>>
>>>
>>
>>Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an
>>antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the
>>secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then
>>the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve
>>it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.
>>
>
> never seen a module die yet..
> and the newer ones, the FIRST thing is erase the existing keys.,
> and then reload from scratch.
>
>
>
>>Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its
>>own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not
>>reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.
>
> -
>
>>Thank you,
>
> think its a one way thing.. key send its code-and if it matches
> whats stored,, then the car starts..
> --Shiva--
>
>

No. Its two way. Older resistive system was one way. Newer RFID
system is two way. And its encrypted. Keyless Entry is one way, and it
suffers from the record-playback attack since you can make it transmit
its secret code just by pushing the button. But you cant get RFID to
give out its secret code just by asking.


--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 00:54:10 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>>Sounds like a 56-bit binary key (number), not a frequency operated thing.
>>Just a hunch.
>
>
> whats a transponder... sonar?
>
> electrical oil bouncces a signal into the key head, the chip
> charges its battery and answers back what it is..
> same thing as what Walmart is trying to get done..
> RFID.
>
> --Shiva--
>
>

Same thing that has been used for 'tagging' wild animals for years.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

In article >,
dnoyeB > wrote:

> > and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to
> > do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
> > those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
> >
>
> Well you will never be able to reprogram a part.

Maybe*, but you can reprogram a PCM/TCM/BCM/GEM modules, etc.
(* I'm pretty sure that water pumps and wheel bearings are out)

> Thats recall type of
> stuff only the Dealer will do.

Hogwash. Buy a passthru device or the factory scan tool, buy a
subscription for the data and have at it.

> But OBDII does allow more than just
> reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not
> just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate
> than you do for the one that just reads.

You mean like "steak costs more than hamburger?"

Neil Nelson wrote:
> In article >,
> dnoyeB > wrote:
>
>
>>> and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to
>>>do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
>>>those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
>>>
>>
>>Well you will never be able to reprogram a part.
>
>
> Maybe*, but you can reprogram a PCM/TCM/BCM/GEM modules, etc.
> (* I'm pretty sure that water pumps and wheel bearings are out)
>
>

Not sure what you mean by 'reprogram.' Perhaps you can alter some of
the configuration data changing performance and characteristics. But
you can not alter the software. That requires encrypted codes only the
OEM has and the Dealershp has. I'm not aware of any way around this. I
can't imagine the OEM would give out these codes either.

I think its just misunderstanding. You are probably just changing
values in ROM, eventhough they may advertise it as 'reprogramming.'
Which I suppose you could call it. But to me its not since I work for
automotive company and when Ford says to me reprogram they are talking
about changing softare not values.

>>Thats recall type of
>>stuff only the Dealer will do.
>
>
> Hogwash. Buy a passthru device or the factory scan tool, buy a
> subscription for the data and have at it.
>

yea, your talking about changing ROM values. Its OEM objective that
even in recall all they need to do is change ROM values. But true
reprogramming comes when something is wrong with the software and the
whole program needs changing. Today most OEMs require that ability out
of their modules.

>
>>But OBDII does allow more than just
>>reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not
>>just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate
>>than you do for the one that just reads.
>
>
> You mean like "steak costs more than hamburger?"

Sure.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

All I can see from this thread is that some people are mistaking the code
readers like Actron's ( which are diagnostic tools for the systems of the
car controlled by the computer (module)), with a factory or aftermarket
scan/programming tool for scanning / programming. The factory tool does
"everything", engine management, computer diagnostics, key management, etc.
As 'Key would say, just my 2cents. Wayne
"dnoyeB" > wrote in message
...
> Neil Nelson wrote:
>> In article >,
>> dnoyeB > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to
>>>>do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
>>>>those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Well you will never be able to reprogram a part.
>>
>>
>> Maybe*, but you can reprogram a PCM/TCM/BCM/GEM modules, etc.
>> (* I'm pretty sure that water pumps and wheel bearings are out)
>>
>>
>
> Not sure what you mean by 'reprogram.' Perhaps you can alter some of the
> configuration data changing performance and characteristics. But you can
> not alter the software. That requires encrypted codes only the OEM has
> and the Dealershp has. I'm not aware of any way around this. I can't
> imagine the OEM would give out these codes either.
>
> I think its just misunderstanding. You are probably just changing values
> in ROM, eventhough they may advertise it as 'reprogramming.' Which I
> suppose you could call it. But to me its not since I work for automotive
> company and when Ford says to me reprogram they are talking about changing
> softare not values.
>
>>>Thats recall type of stuff only the Dealer will do.
>>
>>
>> Hogwash. Buy a passthru device or the factory scan tool, buy a
>> subscription for the data and have at it.
>>
>
> yea, your talking about changing ROM values. Its OEM objective that even
> in recall all they need to do is change ROM values. But true
> reprogramming comes when something is wrong with the software and the
> whole program needs changing. Today most OEMs require that ability out of
> their modules.
>
>>
>>>But OBDII does allow more than just reading codes. You can manipulate
>>>some parts. its diagnostics, not just code reader, though you pay more
>>>for the one tha tcan manipulate than you do for the one that just reads.
>>
>>
>> You mean like "steak costs more than hamburger?"
>
> Sure.
>
> --
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
> man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes
> 9:16

"wayne c" > wrote in message
om...
> All I can see from this thread is that some people are
> mistaking the code readers like Actron's ( which are
> diagnostic tools for the systems of the car controlled by
> the computer (module)), with a factory or aftermarket
> scan/programming tool for scanning / programming. The
> factory tool does "everything", engine management,
> computer diagnostics, key management, etc. As 'Key would
> say, just my 2cents. Wayne

I think the confusion stems from the mis-use of terminology.
or, the spelling if the word :-)

just my2¢
g'day all
--
"Key"

---snip the confusion---