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Eradicating BBA



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 16th 04, 07:52 PM
Chris_S
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Default Eradicating BBA

Manual Removal - if it's not there, it_Can't_ grow... right?

Wrong. Red algae is designed to survive in fast moving stream water by
nailing itself to rocks, wood, and plants. This stuff is related to
coraline in the sea. Ever tried pulling barnacles off rocks at the coast?
Not easy and certainly not fun. Epoxy cement has real competition here.

It is extremely tough just trying to scrape BBA off plastic tubes, virtually
impossible to get it off of wood, and IS impossible to get it off other
plants without ripping them to shreds!

Going through all that work and nightmare may make it less visible for a
short time, but you have done absolutely nothing to remove it from the
system. There are spores in the water, there are fragments still remaining
on all of the surfaces. You will never get rid of it mechanically. It will
just keep coming back. Physical removal is a total waste of time and
effort unless you have chemically killed it first.

I'm convinced that sterilization by Chlorine or equiv. is the only way to be
rid of this stuff. Perhaps the AZOO Brush Algae Killer does the trick. It
appears that no one in the USA or Canada has this stuff yet. I'm still
looking for it.

It should be noted, as NEMO said in the previous post, even after you kill
this stuff it still does not decay away. The threads are still there, dead
and bleached out white. Now ask yourself, if this stuff was anything like
Green algae, why doesn't it just fad away as soon as you kill it? Because
Red Algae is very different. The threads are made of very tough fiberous
material - its freshwater seaweed.

Chris.


  #22  
Old March 16th 04, 08:36 PM
Chris_S
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Default Eradicating BBA

Update: AZOO Brush Algae Killer

For those of you like me that are interested in the "Kill all BBA" approach,
and live in the USA, I'm afraid we are stuck with Chlorox or Copper as the
only methods. Looks like our wonderful Green terrorists, EPA, and DEQ are
trying to put the aquarium business out of business too.

I just got done talking with the AZOO importer Aquatic-ECO Systems for the
USA. They cannot bring this stuff in because of the "product title". They
say having "ALGAE" and "KILLER" in the same sentence brings the EPA down on
them like a ton of bricks. They told me it is becoming very difficult and
expensive to bring anything like this into the USA anymore. They have to
pay huge taxes, fees, and attorneys to do it.

I think I will talk to some of my friends in Asia have them buy some locally
and send it to me.

Hey, in a few more years they will probably outlaw all bug spray and
weed-be-gone here in the states. I guess we will just have to
"mechanically" remove all pests and weeds everywhere.

Chris.


  #23  
Old March 16th 04, 08:41 PM
Harry Muscle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

"Chris_S" wrote in message
...
Update: AZOO Brush Algae Killer

For those of you like me that are interested in the "Kill all BBA"

approach,
and live in the USA, I'm afraid we are stuck with Chlorox or Copper as the
only methods. Looks like our wonderful Green terrorists, EPA, and DEQ are
trying to put the aquarium business out of business too.

I just got done talking with the AZOO importer Aquatic-ECO Systems for the
USA. They cannot bring this stuff in because of the "product title".

They
say having "ALGAE" and "KILLER" in the same sentence brings the EPA down

on
them like a ton of bricks. They told me it is becoming very difficult and
expensive to bring anything like this into the USA anymore. They have to
pay huge taxes, fees, and attorneys to do it.

I think I will talk to some of my friends in Asia have them buy some

locally
and send it to me.

Hey, in a few more years they will probably outlaw all bug spray and
weed-be-gone here in the states. I guess we will just have to
"mechanically" remove all pests and weeds everywhere.

Chris.



Can you find it online for sale anywhere, especially in Europe? They might
be willing to ship to the US.

Harry




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  #24  
Old March 16th 04, 08:56 PM
Harry Muscle
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Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

"Chris_S" wrote in message
...
Update: AZOO Brush Algae Killer

For those of you like me that are interested in the "Kill all BBA"

approach,
and live in the USA, I'm afraid we are stuck with Chlorox or Copper as the
only methods. Looks like our wonderful Green terrorists, EPA, and DEQ are
trying to put the aquarium business out of business too.

I just got done talking with the AZOO importer Aquatic-ECO Systems for the
USA. They cannot bring this stuff in because of the "product title".

They
say having "ALGAE" and "KILLER" in the same sentence brings the EPA down

on
them like a ton of bricks. They told me it is becoming very difficult and
expensive to bring anything like this into the USA anymore. They have to
pay huge taxes, fees, and attorneys to do it.

I think I will talk to some of my friends in Asia have them buy some

locally
and send it to me.

Hey, in a few more years they will probably outlaw all bug spray and
weed-be-gone here in the states. I guess we will just have to
"mechanically" remove all pests and weeds everywhere.

Chris.



Check with these guys:
http://www.adelaideaquariums.com.au/...reatments.html . They used to
have the product you want listed, can't find it right now, but they might
still carry it. Send them an e-mail maybe. According to the web address,
they're located in Australia, which means they probably wouldn't have a
problem sending the stuff to the US. Anyway, just a thought.

Harry




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  #25  
Old March 16th 04, 09:12 PM
RedForeman
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Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

Manual Removal - if it's not there, it_Can't_ grow... right?

Wrong. Red algae is designed to survive in fast moving stream water by
nailing itself to rocks, wood, and plants. This stuff is related to
coraline in the sea. Ever tried pulling barnacles off rocks at the coast?
Not easy and certainly not fun. Epoxy cement has real competition here.

It is extremely tough just trying to scrape BBA off plastic tubes,

virtually
impossible to get it off of wood, and IS impossible to get it off other
plants without ripping them to shreds!

Going through all that work and nightmare may make it less visible for a
short time, but you have done absolutely nothing to remove it from the
system. There are spores in the water, there are fragments still

remaining
on all of the surfaces. You will never get rid of it mechanically. It

will
just keep coming back. Physical removal is a total waste of time and
effort unless you have chemically killed it first.

I'm convinced that sterilization by Chlorine or equiv. is the only way to

be
rid of this stuff. Perhaps the AZOO Brush Algae Killer does the trick.

It
appears that no one in the USA or Canada has this stuff yet. I'm still
looking for it.

It should be noted, as NEMO said in the previous post, even after you kill
this stuff it still does not decay away. The threads are still there,

dead
and bleached out white. Now ask yourself, if this stuff was anything like
Green algae, why doesn't it just fad away as soon as you kill it? Because
Red Algae is very different. The threads are made of very tough fiberous
material - its freshwater seaweed.

Chris.



My bad, I thought you were asking how others deal with it, when they had
it... I didn't realize you'd already made up your mind and was just
searching for a specific answer to confirm you're already made up mind...

I've been dealing with it for 4 months, and not really having a major spaz
about it, it's not growing anymore, it's declining, and nuking the tank
isn't one of my preferred methods of fixing stuff...

I hope you have some luck with azoo, or clorox, whichever method you choose,
as I'll be one that is sincerely interested in what you learn, find and if
and when you report back here, we'll go from there....

Thanks for your time...

--
RedForeman future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
`,,`,,`,,`,, `,,`
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).


  #26  
Old March 16th 04, 11:08 PM
Alex R
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Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

"Chris_S" wrote in message
...
There was no phosphate in the water at all.


Well, there's your problem.


Gee, for years other people told me that the cause of BBA was too much
phosphate. Now you say having no phosphate causes it. This is typical of
the conflicting information I often here about BBA problems.

Obviously you are of the camp that believes you can control BBA with the
water. I bought into that mentality for years, and fought the BBA using
that method. The BBA won. Maybe for some people, their water, their
plants, and their type of BBA, that method can have some success. But it

is
very clear from everything else I have read that more and more 'water
treatment' people are becoming convinced that BBA is a different kind of
problem entirely.


A single thing causing algae is a really bad way to think about it. So is
thinking that you can control it with water conditions. Sure, if you make
the water conditions perfect for the plants, the algae will subside. But
remove the plants, the algae will flourish under the same water parameters.
Again, it helps tremendously to think about the plant health, not the algae.
I know it's not easy because it's counterintuitive, and because we don't
know exactly why it works.

I have seen really nice show aquariums with tons of plant growth and no

BBA.
When I ask the aqua person how they did it, they tell me: "I rinse every
plant in Chlorine before I put it in the tank - I don't let BBA in the
tank". That is how they handle it, they prevent it.


That's because the plant care methodology is a relatively new idea and
because those people probably don't follow the online plant forums very
much. Those folks probably never even heard of adding phosphate.

I've had plant growth through the top of the tank. Swords with 24 inch
leaves, and so much plant growth I had to prune plants every week. Yet

the
BBA never went away. I've read articles from other people who believed

that
water control could combat BBA as well, yet they were left scratching

their
heads when they lost the fight and the BBA kept growing.


That doesn't prove your plants were at the *peak* of their health. When I
say the plants must be as healthy as possible, I don't mean they should
simply be growing "well". I mean, they should be growing as fast as possible
under the available lighting, with every other nutrient being available to
support that growth. In effect, the lighting should be the limiting
nutrient. That means if 30 ppm CO2 is required for that kind of growth, then
25 ppm will not suffice. I don't see any indication that you have seriously
tried to satisfy your plants' every nutrient requirement in this way. It
doesn't matter if your plants appear to grow well. If they can grow better
still with the addition of some nutrient, then they are not growing their
best.

Maybe you can provide some details about tank such the lighting, what kind
of CO2 system, the daily CO2 levels, your dosing regimen and the amount and
type of plants, and we can advise you on what you can do to help the plants.

I do not know if you have any BBA in your tank(s) right now, but if you
would really like to test your theories in practice, I would be happy to
send you some of mine. I can send you a rock or plant with the BBA

species
I have. Just let me know.


Almost every tank has BBA cells in it, including mine. You cannot kill every
last algae cell with nutrient control. That's not the goal. I've had every
kind of algae for the first year of keeping plants (except GW). Believe me,
I was as frustrated as you are. I too was focusing on starving the algae.
All it did was change the predominant type of algae in my tank. Like you,
people were telling me that I should not have even a trace of PO4 in my
tank. I couldn't understand why I couldn't get a reading on my PO4 test, and
yet the algae was choking the plants. But then I started paying attention to
Tom Barr's posts on the APD, where he was suggesting supplementing PO4
instead of depriving your plants of it. That's what did it for me. I was
already adding everything else but PO4, and had a compressed CO2 system.
Since then, I've had minor algae outbreaks here and there. And it turned out
that each time the fix was to *increase* the amount of some nutrient,
whether it was CO2, NO3, or PO4. I keep my CO2 fairly high. But if it slips
for some reason, I get an almost immediate algae outbreak, even if the CO2
is still above 20 ppm. I still have some filamentous algae on the Rotalla
wallichi, which is the hardest plant to grow in my tank. That's why it's
probably the least healthy. I'm sure the solution is in adding the nutrients
more frequently than twice a week, so that the levels never fall very low.

If you send me a plant with algae on it, the algae will disappear through
pruning of old leaves and will not grow on the new ones. If you send me a
rock, it might actually take a long time for the algae to actually die off.
But if I clean off as much of it as possible first, it will not regrow
either.
__
Alex
pcalex (at) hotpop.com


  #27  
Old March 17th 04, 01:00 AM
Chris_S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

Maybe you can provide some details about tank such the lighting, what kind
of CO2 system, the daily CO2 levels, your dosing regimen and the amount

and
type of plants, and we can advise you on what you can do to help the

plants.

Here are some specs:

- Tank 100G
- Intake/Return pairs on each end of tank through bottom.
- Filters: Eheim 2226 and Eheim 2227 Wet/Dry.
2226 is for heating, CO2, and mechanical filtration.
2227 is for bio treatment, nitrogen cycle.
- Ebo Jager 250W Heater in Lifeguard A92-19 Heater Module.under cabinet.
- DIY CO2 injected into Heater module on 2226 return, 100% diffusion.
- (2) PowerCompact 65W 6700K lights.
- Test Kits: LaMotte, Salifert, Seachem.
- Flourite mixed into gravel with some tetra sticks.
- I have used Seachem Flourish, Potasium, Iron adders, and Vitragro, etc.
- About 16 fish right now, 5 very large angels. Pleco, 4-SAEs, 4-Octa, some
corys, etc.
- Plants, more than I can name. the swords got so big I finally had to get
rid of half of them. Crypts, some large ferns, apogeton, Valliseria, java
moss, lotus, some bush type plants I can't remember.

Temp: 80F
pH: 6.8
Ammon: 0 PPM
Nitrites: 0 PPM
Nitrates: 15PPM
Phos: 0.5 PPM
GH: 6 deg
Iron: 0.1 PPM
CO2: 25PPM

Like I said this new tank is only 6 weeks old, and I am still working on
getting the iron back up. The tank is weak right now on Nitrate and Iron.

I keep my CO2 fairly high. But if it slips for some reason,
I get an almost immediate algae outbreak, even if the CO2
is still above 20 ppm.


Yeh of course, that's because your nutients are so high.

I've been running tanks for 20 years. I know most of the things that can go
wrong, why, and how to fix them. But BBA is different. Years ago even in
tanks where the water was garbage, out of wack, I had green algae but never
any BBA. After I got BBA 5 years ago, it makes no difference how good or
bad the water is. The BBA is always there regardless. That's why I've
given up on water control for BBA.

Thanks, Chris.


  #28  
Old March 17th 04, 01:04 AM
Chris_S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

Check with these guys:
http://www.adelaideaquariums.com.au/...reatments.html . They used

to
have the product you want listed, can't find it right now, but they might
still carry it. Send them an e-mail maybe. According to the web address,
they're located in Australia, which means they probably wouldn't have a
problem sending the stuff to the US. Anyway, just a thought.


Thanks, yeh I saw that site as well had it. Another in Spain, Mexico, and a
couple others as I recall in Taiwan. I may try them.

Chris.


  #29  
Old March 17th 04, 01:14 AM
Chris_S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

My bad, I thought you were asking how others deal with it, when they had
it... I didn't realize you'd already made up your mind and was just
searching for a specific answer to confirm you're already made up mind...


Sorry I'm so testy, but the title of the thread I started was "Eradicating
BBA". Water control in my opinion has no hope in Hell of 'eradicating' it.
Merely controlling it, and not even very well at that.

I want to get rid of the stuff, and I am certainly interested in any ideas
on that. The AZOO thing is something I did not know about, and that is new.
That's great news.

But I am just so tired, sick of, and frustrated by the water control
approach. I've seen that movie already and know the ending. I now consider
it a waste of time to persue any further. I'm sick of beautiful tanks
infested with BBA. I'm ready for chemical warfare. Whatever it takes. I
just want the BBA gone.

Thanks, Chris.


  #30  
Old March 17th 04, 04:28 AM
Alex R
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Eradicating BBA

"Chris_S" wrote in message
...

Here are some specs:

- Tank 100G
- DIY CO2 injected into Heater module on 2226 return, 100% diffusion.


Is this yeast CO2? If yes, then it's highly recommended to use a compressed
system on tank this size. But with your lighting, you might get away with a
yeast system.

- (2) PowerCompact 65W 6700K lights.


That's only 1.3 W/g. It shouldn't be that hard to stop the algae at this
lighting. In other words, to make light as the limiting nutrient for your
plants.

- Test Kits: LaMotte, Salifert, Seachem.
- Flourite mixed into gravel with some tetra sticks.
- I have used Seachem Flourish, Potasium, Iron adders, and Vitragro, etc.


Have you used Flourish and potassium at the same time? Or were they added
sort of ad hoc? You don't really need to use any other commercial additives
with Flourish. Just the macronutrients.

- Plants, more than I can name. the swords got so big I finally had to

get
rid of half of them. Crypts, some large ferns, apogeton, Valliseria, java
moss, lotus, some bush type plants I can't remember.


Nitrates: 15PPM
Phos: 0.5 PPM
GH: 6 deg
Iron: 0.1 PPM
CO2: 25PPM


Have you measured it both in the morning and in the evening?

Like I said this new tank is only 6 weeks old, and I am still working on
getting the iron back up. The tank is weak right now on Nitrate and Iron.


An iron test is not really a good indicator or iron availability for plants
for various reasons. Watch the new leaves of your fast-growing plants. If
they are pale or red, add more Flourish. It's not unusual to add several
times recommended amount of it. Do the nitrates naturally increase or
decrease? If they increase, that's not a good sign. Even at your lighting, I
think the plants should be able to overall reduce the NO3 from the water
column. It may not be necessary to add PO4, though.

I keep my CO2 fairly high. But if it slips for some reason,
I get an almost immediate algae outbreak, even if the CO2
is still above 20 ppm.


Yeh of course, that's because your nutients are so high.


But the other nutrients are still high with adequate CO2. Why doesn't the
algae grow with high CO2?

any BBA. After I got BBA 5 years ago, it makes no difference how good or
bad the water is. The BBA is always there regardless. That's why I've
given up on water control for BBA.


The most precise water control in the world wouldn't work if you don't think
about the plants. It's not the water parameters the algae responds to. It's
plant health. Again, I'm not sure how it's connected. It doesn't seem like
you've really tried focusing on plant health/growth before. Doing one thing
for the plants will not stop algae. The plants have to get enough of every
nutrient at the same time.
__
Alex


 




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