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#21
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#22
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I have nothing against doing water changes, as I do plenty with fully
cycled and planted tanks. Based upon my experience: To use only the act of a WC to keep ammonia and nitrite levels at non-deadly levels in a un-cycled, non-planted,and moderately stocked tank would be around 100% per day....not all at once but cumulative. I assume the pH is above 6.0 and there is not an unusual amount of Chloride in the water. I cannot understand how a once per week WC of unknown size would be adequate...even if a blob of "mulm" were added. I would gladly trade the mulm for a pint of Amquel, some aquarium salt, and a Seachem Ammonia Alert. I would also prefer to trade the mulm for a few bunches of Water Sprite or Java Moss or Wysteria or just about any fast growing low light plant that is free of snails and parasites... I am definately down with WCs, I just believe there is some practical limit where they can be a lone success in the dilution of the poisonous Ammonia and Nitrite. I do not disagree entirely with your remarks or those of Kirstin or with any one elses, really. There are many ways and styles to not kill fish. |
#23
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![]() "LeighMo" wrote in message ... This hasn't been my experience, I'm afraid. Mulm speeds cycling, for sure, and I use it, but it doesn't eliminate ammonia and nitrite spikes if you're stocking the tank fully all at once. And as I said, there are instances where stocking, even overstocking, all at once is necessary. African tanks are often overstocked, all at once, to minimize aggression and to keep any one fish from getting a "home tank advantage." Thank you all for this very interesting discussion! I am actually in the process of setting up my 45 long tank, and this issue is extremely relevant to me. It's going to be a moderately (20 - 40%) planted tank stocked with Mbuna cichlids (yes,I'm aware that they are herbivores!). I plan on fully (over?)stocking my tank at once to avoid aggression, which means I will be adding 4-5 yellow labs, 6-8 pseudotropheous demasonis, and one bristlenose pl*co all at once. Needless to say, cycling is an issue. Right now I'm leaning towards fishless cycling, as the last thing I want to do is damage or kill all of my new fish to an ammonia or nitrite spike. After reading some algae horror stories from those who have tried to fishless cycle with plants, I'm thinking of doing the fishless cycle sans plants in a dark tank. Once the cycle is complete, then I'll add the plants, and the next day the fish. The only tank that I trust is safe enough to use filter media from is my own, but it's a lightly stocked heavily planted 10 gal, so I'm not sure how beneficial it will be as a seed. Hopefully it helps somewhat. Does this sound like a reasonable plan? If I was going with a peaceful community tank, I would most definitely use Chuck's method of cycling a planted tank and add fish slowly. But I just can't see it working with demasonis, which I understand can be mean little buggers. Especially since I'm not going with a heavily planted tank, as it's primarily rock work. |
#24
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Aside from the whole debate going on, I have one observation to make:
if there's anything I learned specifically from spending 8-10 hours a day for years on these groups helping newbies with their problems is that there is no one "best" way to do something. Every person and every situation is different. Some people just aren't comfortable with cycling a tank with fish in it, period: no matter the water changes, no matter the test kits, no matter the plants. And if they want to be relieved that they finally heard of a way to cycle a tank without using fish, then I say let them be happy and use the method; don't rain on their parade just because you don't like the method. All we can do as a group is present them with the sum of our knowledge on how to prevent problems in various ways and let them make the decision about what they're going to do. By the by... But the water change, so simple and so underated.... Yes, they are, but they're not a complete cure-all. And I have also heard on several occasions, and I'm not exaggerating here, well-respected fish store employees telling newbs buying their first tank that they should cycle with several fish (in a 10 gal this is the final stocking level) and _not do any water changes for two months!_ They tell them it will slow down or even stop the cycling process by reducing ammonia levels and in the same breath that they should expect many of the fish to die. And because the poor saps don't understand how these bacteria work, they believe it and probably go do it. What a terrible introduction to the hobby! And talk about something to teach them bad habits... ![]() against here. Unfortunately, if these guys aren't lucky enough to look on the net and find some good info about testing and changes before applying the bad advice, then there's a good chance we've lost them to the hobby. But maybe at some point before or after, when they've learned the horrors of cycling with fish the wrong way and don't like the idea of trying the fish method again, they'll see a mention of fishless cycling and that will interest them in trying again more than another round of their LFS's previously-advised toxic waste dump method will. And with fishless cycling, there are so many variations on how you can do it, they certainly can employ water testing and changing as part of the method if they wish. Sure, it doesn't cure every potential problem or bad habit, but only time and experience will do that. I was so lucky when I seriously got started over 10 years ago that these groups existed. I'd had lots of problems with ammonia in goldfish tanks and was about to give up, but when I decided to set up my first tropical tank, I came to Usenet to read how to do it (the web didn't exist yet.) I learned about the nitrogen cycle and used fishless cycling to start the tank - seeded the UGF, dumped in the ammonia, turned up the heat, and tested every day to watch the cycle happen. It cycled in a couple weeks with almost no effort from me, and after a small water change, I added about half the stock and some plants in one day without having to stress anybody out with measurable ammonia exposure for even one minute. After that first effort, I've never had to "cycle" a tank since because of the vast array of techniques I read about and have employed. If only every person could start out like that... :/ Oh, yeah, something about plants to stay on topic...anubii! See ya, Kristen |
#25
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Danae wrote:
Does this sound like a reasonable plan? If I was going with a peaceful I think your plan is great, and I for one appreciate your concern for the well-being of your fish. -- Victor M. Martinez http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv |
#26
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How about for unplanted tanks? Does cycling have a place in those?
A lot of people who post here asking questions about plants don't really have planted tanks. They have standard fishtanks that they plan to put a few live plants in. (Often choosing plants completely unsuited for their light levels, if not for aquariums in general.) =A0 I suspect the original poster might have been one of those, since his main concern was not wanting to have the tank sitting there empty for weeks and weeks. A true planted tank isn't empty, even if there's no fish in it. :-) Leigh I think people make the cycle more difficult than it needs to be regardless of planted or non planted tanks. I have never pre cycled a tank just started out with a small fish load and some gravel to seed the tank. Even without the gravel I have never had any trouble with the process if I don't overload the tank to start out with. As far as plants go I would have to think that some of the bacteria is clinging to them when they are added to the tank so again the tank is seeded. This is just my opinion tho. Vicki On a personal note I think a planted tank is healthier for the fish. I have kept fish in a non planted tank for a long time till this past winter when I started adding live plants. Now I believe that there is more of a balance and my plants are growing like weeds, also I have noticed fish spawning that never did before. |
#27
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no, thats not true--im the original poster =A0 =A0 i didnt mention
wanting a tank full of fish right away =A0 =A0 i just asked if plants should be included when cycling a new tank but having watched the thread, i guess what i will do is use some gravel from my mates tank, cut the sponge in his filter in half and put it in my tank, add some of that ager product, add a limited number of plants and check the ph a few days later =A0 =A0 if all is well i will add a few fish and see how we go how does that sound as a plan? Better yet just swap out his sponge for your new one. That way you get all his nice happy bacteria, he gets a new sponge filter and both of y'all are happy. Add a few fish to feed the bacteria, some low/moderate light plants like amazon swords and enjoy your tank. Just remember to feed the plants and provide them with a nice full spectrum light to grow. Leave the expensive lighting CO2 stuff alone till you are ready for that part of the hobby. Personally I don't use that stuff and all is well. Also keep in mind that many fish don't like extreme lighting anyways. Vicki |
#28
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![]() Better yet just swap out his sponge for your new one. That way you get all his nice happy bacteria, he gets a new sponge filter and both of y'all are happy. Add a few fish to feed the bacteria, some low/moderate light plants like amazon swords and enjoy your tank. Just remember to feed the plants and provide them with a nice full spectrum light to grow. Leave the expensive lighting CO2 stuff alone till you are ready for that part of the hobby. Personally I don't use that stuff and all is well. Also keep in mind that many fish don't like extreme lighting anyways. Vicki OK, thats an improvement on my plan Vicki, thanks. On the subject of lights and plants: the tank is 75 gallon (US), 4' long and has space for 3 tubes. I plan to start off with a modest number of plants, but hope to develop this into a heavily planted tank as time goes by (I work in a tree nursery, so love plants and the challenge of aquatic plants seems like a potential consuming hobby). Any recommendations on the combination of tubes I should buy? |
#29
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Better yet just swap out his sponge for your new one. That way you get
all his nice happy bacteria, he gets a new sponge filter and both of y'all are happy. Add a few fish to feed the bacteria, some low/moderate light plants like amazon swords and enjoy your tank. Just remember to feed the plants and provide them with a nice full spectrum light to grow. Leave the expensive lighting CO2 stuff alone till you are ready for that part of the hobby. Personally I don't use that stuff and all is well. Also keep in mind that many fish don't like extreme lighting anyways. Vicki OK, thats an improvement on my plan Vicki, thanks. On the subject of lights and plants: the tank is 75 gallon (US), 4' long and has space for 3 tubes. =A0 =A0 I plan to start off with a modest number of plants, but hope to develop this into a heavily planted tank as time goes by (I work in a tree nursery, so love plants and the challenge of aquatic plants seems like a potential consuming hobby). Any recommendations on the combination of tubes I should buy? You sound a lot like me. My husband has a full service garden center and after messing with ponds for a while I decided to do the planted aquarium thing. I have a 55g myself with the factory hood on it. I only have low/moderate light plants and use two 15w 10,000K deep reef lights. They are for coral and plant use and get the light down good for my deep tank. If you plan on only growing similar plants than that is all you will need. Just make sure that you read the label on the tubes first and make sure that they are full spectrum and not acnic (sp?) bulbs. You can even try a 50/50 bulb on the third spot for a bulb. It will not do much for the plants but will really bring out the colour of your fish. If you plan on growing higher level lighting plants than there are folks in here that know more about that. Vicki |
#30
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