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Dana 30 gear noise



 
 
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  #41  
Old July 19th 05, 12:56 AM
Mike Romain
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Posts: n/a
Default

His nut is still turning so I wouldn't suspect a bottom yet.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

"L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:
>
> Imagine the yoke to be a different length, shorter and nut bottoms
> out: http://www.billhughes.com/dana30/
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> http://www.billhughes.com/
>
> Peter Pontbriand wrote:
> >
> > If the yokes differed in the thickness of the splined part, how would that
> > affect things? Would using a new crush sleeve solve such a problme?
> >
> > The pinion nut only turned 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn when going from 160 to 250+
> > ft-lbs, I don't know if that is significant.
> >
> > /Peter

Ads
  #42  
Old July 19th 05, 01:14 AM
Peter Pontbriand
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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Yes, I've been trying to use the old crush sleeve.

/Peter

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
> 1/8 of a turn is a significant amount.
>
> Are you using an old crush sleeve????????????
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
>
>
> Peter Pontbriand wrote:
> >
> > If the yokes differed in the thickness of the splined part, how would

that
> > affect things? Would using a new crush sleeve solve such a problme?
> >
> > The pinion nut only turned 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn when going from 160 to

250+
> > ft-lbs, I don't know if that is significant.
> >
> > /Peter
> >
> > "L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Be sure and tell them you switched yokes, I believe that's your
> > > problem, because it should slid right in against the bearing like the
> > > old one.
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > http://www.billhughes.com/
> > >
> > > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, I did both, I tightened the pinion nut a bit beyond 250 using

a
> > > > breaker bar, then put it all back together hoping the preload was

> > enough. It
> > > > wasn't. Still lots of howling when coasting and now it howls when

> > driving at
> > > > highway speeds too.
> > > >
> > > > Since I've wasted enough of my time crawling around on the floor of

a
> > > > superheated garage with no hoist and inadequate tools, I'm going to

hand
> > > > this off to a pro, assuming I can find one. Haven't had any luck so

far,
> > > > they keep telling me they don't have torque wrenches that go beyond

250
> > > > ft-lbs either.
> > > >
> > > > /Peter



  #43  
Old July 19th 05, 01:18 AM
Peter Pontbriand
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It's about fifteen miles to the city, would I be doing serious harm to the
gears driving it there like it is now? Would removing the front drive shaft
be necessary? Would driving without a front drive shaft harm the viscous
coupling in the transfer case (NP249)?

/Peter

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
...
> His nut is still turning so I wouldn't suspect a bottom yet.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> "L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:
> >
> > Imagine the yoke to be a different length, shorter and nut bottoms
> > out: http://www.billhughes.com/dana30/
> > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > http://www.billhughes.com/
> >
> > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
> > >
> > > If the yokes differed in the thickness of the splined part, how would

that
> > > affect things? Would using a new crush sleeve solve such a problme?
> > >
> > > The pinion nut only turned 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn when going from 160 to

250+
> > > ft-lbs, I don't know if that is significant.
> > >
> > > /Peter



  #44  
Old July 19th 05, 02:13 AM
Bill Brabender
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Try a large truck or bus garage.


"Peter Pontbriand" <TRIMsprocketATstormDOTcaTRIM> wrote in message
...
> Well, I did both, I tightened the pinion nut a bit beyond 250 using a
> breaker bar, then put it all back together hoping the preload was enough.
> It
> wasn't. Still lots of howling when coasting and now it howls when driving
> at
> highway speeds too.
>
> Since I've wasted enough of my time crawling around on the floor of a
> superheated garage with no hoist and inadequate tools, I'm going to hand
> this off to a pro, assuming I can find one. Haven't had any luck so far,
> they keep telling me they don't have torque wrenches that go beyond 250
> ft-lbs either.
>
> /Peter
>
> "Peter Pontbriand" <TRIMsprocketATstormDOTcaTRIM> wrote in message
> ...
>> Hmm. A conundrum has surfaced. I've incrementally increased the torque on
>> the pinion nut a few times to the maximum of 250 ft-lbs my torque wrench
>> will do. The preload has increased, i can feel more resistance to
>> turning,
>> but I can still turn the pinion nut with my in-lbs torque wrench set to

> it's
>> minimum of 25 in-lbs without it clicking.
>>
>> What do I do? Crank on the pinion nut with a breaker bar and hope I don't

> go
>> to far, or put it all back together and hope the preload is enough as-is?
>>
>> /Peter
>>
>> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > That is the idea Peter. It can take up to 500 ft lb to set that sucker
>> > according to the book I have. I was always told to go at least to 300,
>> > but as mentioned, I have never done one.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Disregard what, exactly? The bit about the air impact wrench? Seeing

> as
>> I
>> > > don't have one, that won't be a problem ;-)
>> > >
>> > > Actually, someone mentioned somewhere in this thread that using

> anything
>> > > further sown the drivetrain to hold the pinion from turning wouldn't

>> work.
>> > > Now that I've played around with it a bit more, I can see - or should

> I
>> say
>> > > feel - how the gear teeth would cause the pinion to "walk" a bit,

>> thowing
>> > > things off. I think the only way to do this properly is to have

>> something to
>> > > hold the yoke itself, which is what I've done. I've reinstalled it

> using
>> red
>> > > Loc-Tite on the nut, snugged it up to 160 ft-lbs, and removed my yoke
>> > > grabber. The axle shafts are removed, and it's taking way less torque

>> than
>> > > my inch-lbs torque wrench can measure to turn the pinion.
>> > >
>> > > So, just to make sure, what I should be doing now is increasing the

>> torque
>> > > on the pinion yoke nut incrementally until it takes 30 inch-lbs or so

> to
>> > > turn the pinion?
>> > >
>> > > /Peter
>> > >
>> > > "Earle Horton" > wrote in message
>> > > news:1121699291.1230ba0de444f436447964b5ba854b66@t eranews...
>> > > > Thirty years ago I would have used an air impact wrench, but now I

>> have
>> > > more
>> > > > experience. Please disregard this. ;o)
>> > > >
>> > > > Earle
>> > > >
>> > > > "Peter Pontbriand" <TRIMsprocketATstormDOTcaTRIM> wrote in message
>> > > > ...
>> > > > > The thing is cone shaped, no flat spots for any sort of pipe

> wrench
>> like
>> > > a
>> > > > > regular u-joint yoke. There is a narrow lip at the widest part of

>> the
>> > > cone
>> > > > > (away from the pinion), but it would take a mighty big pipe
>> > > > > wrench

>> to
>> > > grab
>> > > > > that, and I don't have such an animal. Plus, I think it would get

>> pretty
>> > > > > messed up by a pipe wrench doing 160 - 500 ft-lbs. I doubt that
>> > > > > an

>> oil
>> > > > > filter wrench would be able to hold it at all.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I've just drilled the two holes in the bar stock so that it can
>> > > > > be
>> > > bolted
>> > > > to
>> > > > > the yoke using two of the six bolts, I just hope that that is
>> > > sufficient.
>> > > > I
>> > > > > don't want to break or distort the yoke using only two of the

> holes
>> to
>> > > > hold
>> > > > > it, but trying to fab another arm onto it to grab a third hole

> seems
>> > > like
>> > > > > excess right now - it's 33 degrees Celsius in the garage and very

>> humid.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > /Peter
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
>> > > > > ...
>> > > > > > Won't something like a chain oil filter wrench grab it? How

> about
>> a
>> > > > > > plumbers pipe wrench?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I don't have a photo, but the trick is to make the bar so the

>> socket
>> > > > > > fits past it if you can or so the socket is just captured under

> it
>> > > while
>> > > > > > still being able to turn.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Good luck.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Mike
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Okay, I'm back from Jamboree and need to get the ZJ going so

> my
>> wife
>> > > > > isn't
>> > > > > > > constantly at the mall with my TJ. My first step will be to

> fab
>> up
>> > > > this
>> > > > > > > "pinion yoke grabber" tool. I've got a three-foot length of

> 1/4"
>> x 1
>> > > > > 1/2"
>> > > > > > > bar stock handy. Will two holes drilled in this be
>> > > > > > > sufficient,

>> or
>> > > > should
>> > > > > I
>> > > > > > > be building a pivoting arm with a third hole in it like the

> one
>> in
>> > > the
>> > > > > > > picture in the FSM? There are a total of six bolts holding
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > driveshaft to
>> > > > > > > this yoke ...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > /Peter
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
>> > > > > > > ...
>> > > > > > > > Unfortunately Peter, that is the only way to get it right
>> > > > > > > > if

>> you
>> > > > don't
>> > > > > > > > have that grabber tool. I would fast be making a bar of

> steel
>> up
>> > > > with
>> > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > couple holes drilled into it so I could bolt it to the

> pinion
>> to
>> > > > hold
>> > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > steady while tightening.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > They are a real bitch to set up and for all the engine and

>> other
>> > > > kinds
>> > > > > > > > of work I do, I send out the diffs. Then a Jeep shop did

> mine
>> > > wrong
>> > > > > > > > even and it cost me a cool $500.00 to fix at a 'real'

> machine
>> > > shop!
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > They are something like setting up a steering box, you

> cannot
>> do
>> > > the
>> > > > > > > > preload with the steering wheel or drag link attached. If

> you
>> do,
>> > > > you
>> > > > > > > > fast have a dead box.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Mike
>> > > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in

> '00
>> > > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Wait a sec, with the axles out I've no way to stop the

>> pinion
>> > > gear
>> > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > turning while I tighten the nut - I'm using the brakes
>> > > > > > > > > for

>> that.
>> > > > > This is
>> > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > > ZJ with a CV yoke thats perfectly round, no flat spots
>> > > > > > > > > for

> a
>> > > > wrench
>> > > > > of
>> > > > > > > any
>> > > > > > > > > sort. Naturally, I don't have the fancy tool in the FSM

> for
>> > > > holding
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > yoke.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Surely I can't be expected to remove the brake calipers,

>> hubs,
>> > > and
>> > > > > axle
>> > > > > > > > > shafts to measure pinion preload, then put them all back

> on
>> to
>> > > > > tighten
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > nut, then do it over again a bunch of times until it's

>> right?
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > /Peter
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > "L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" > wrote in

>> message
>> > > > > > > > > ...
>> > > > > > > > > > When you remove the nut make sure it hasn't

> bottomed
>> out
>> > > as
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > yoke should have easily slid up to where the old one
>> > > > > > > > > > was

>> up
>> > > > > against
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > bearing to crush sleeve. That would be thirty inch

> pounds
>> > > > without
>> > > > > > > axles,
>> > > > > > > > > > for pinion test.
>> > > > > > > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
>> > > > > > > > > > http://www.billhughes.com/
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > Hmm. I think I'll remove the nut and use some blue

>> Loc-Tite
>> > > > > then.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > All I did on the weekend was install the yoke and

>> tighten
>> > > the
>> > > > > nut to
>> > > > > > > 160
>> > > > > > > > > > > lbs-ft. Just now I removed the drive shaft again and

>> turned
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > pinion
>> > > > > > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > > > my lbs-in torque wrench set to 30 with no clicks, so

> it
>> > > needs
>> > > > to
>> > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > tighter.
>> > > > > > > > > > > I think there's even a bit of play in it, but its
>> > > > > > > > > > > hard

>> to
>> > > tell
>> > > > > > > what's
>> > > > > > > > > lash
>> > > > > > > > > > > and what play. Unfortunately now I have to wait for a

>> helper
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > stronger
>> > > > > > > > > > > legs than my six-year-old - he can't push on the
>> > > > > > > > > > > brake

>> pedal
>> > > > > hard
>> > > > > > > enough
>> > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > stop the wheels from spinning when I turn the pinion

>> nut.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > /Peter
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > "L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" > wrote
>> > > > > > > > > > > in
>> > > message
>> > > > > > > > > > > ...
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Peter,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > I never have, but then I've heard of many that

>> have
>> > > > > loosened.
>> > > > > > > If
>> > > > > > > > > > > > you have pinion bearing play the the yoke you have

> is
>> not
>> > > > > sliding
>> > > > > > > up
>> > > > > > > > > > > > hard against the bearing like the previous one did,

> as
>> the
>> > > > > crush
>> > > > > > > > > sleeve
>> > > > > > > > > > > > separating the bearings is naturally in-between

> them.
>> Have
>> > > > you
>> > > > > hit
>> > > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > with an impact, and walked it on down? being
>> > > > > > > > > > > > careful

>> in
>> > > > > feeling
>> > > > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > other hand for when it begins to snug up.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
>> > > > > > > > > > > >

> http://www.billhughes.com/
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > The pinion nut is some sort of stover nut, but

> it's
>> been
>> > > > > re-used
>> > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > > > > couple of
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > times. Should I be putting some sort of Loc-Tite

> on
>> it?
>> > > > Red
>> > > > > or
>> > > > > > > Blue?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > /Peter
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >

>>
>>

>
>



  #45  
Old July 19th 05, 02:18 AM
Mike Romain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Oh man, I don't know what to tell you. A howler can disintegrate fast,
real fast.

You can drive it without axles as long as the stubs are in there to hold
the wheel bearings together. Just pop the outer u-joints. If you have
CV's, well....

Maybe rent a two wheel dolly and bring it in that way?

As for the used crush sleeve, you need a new one for a new yoke unless
you are really lucky. The old sleeve could be compressed too much
already like Bill was alluding to.

Mike

Peter Pontbriand wrote:
>
> It's about fifteen miles to the city, would I be doing serious harm to the
> gears driving it there like it is now? Would removing the front drive shaft
> be necessary? Would driving without a front drive shaft harm the viscous
> coupling in the transfer case (NP249)?
>
> /Peter
>
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ...
> > His nut is still turning so I wouldn't suspect a bottom yet.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > "L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:
> > >
> > > Imagine the yoke to be a different length, shorter and nut bottoms
> > > out: http://www.billhughes.com/dana30/
> > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > http://www.billhughes.com/
> > >
> > > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If the yokes differed in the thickness of the splined part, how would

> that
> > > > affect things? Would using a new crush sleeve solve such a problme?
> > > >
> > > > The pinion nut only turned 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn when going from 160 to

> 250+
> > > > ft-lbs, I don't know if that is significant.
> > > >
> > > > /Peter

  #46  
Old July 19th 05, 02:58 AM
L.W.(ßill) Hughes III
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It's not under a load like it would be in the rear, I don't think
it will hurt it.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Oh man, I don't know what to tell you. A howler can disintegrate fast,
> real fast.
>
> You can drive it without axles as long as the stubs are in there to hold
> the wheel bearings together. Just pop the outer u-joints. If you have
> CV's, well....
>
> Maybe rent a two wheel dolly and bring it in that way?
>
> As for the used crush sleeve, you need a new one for a new yoke unless
> you are really lucky. The old sleeve could be compressed too much
> already like Bill was alluding to.
>
> Mike

  #47  
Old July 19th 05, 03:08 AM
Mike Romain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Howling when that tight kinda implies worn out bearings eh?

Mike

"L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:
>
> It's not under a load like it would be in the rear, I don't think
> it will hurt it.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> http://www.billhughes.com/
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> >
> > Oh man, I don't know what to tell you. A howler can disintegrate fast,
> > real fast.
> >
> > You can drive it without axles as long as the stubs are in there to hold
> > the wheel bearings together. Just pop the outer u-joints. If you have
> > CV's, well....
> >
> > Maybe rent a two wheel dolly and bring it in that way?
> >
> > As for the used crush sleeve, you need a new one for a new yoke unless
> > you are really lucky. The old sleeve could be compressed too much
> > already like Bill was alluding to.
> >
> > Mike

  #48  
Old July 19th 05, 03:28 AM
L.W.(ßill) Hughes III
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Mike,
I'm guessing the other way, the bearings are loose.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> Howling when that tight kinda implies worn out bearings eh?
>
> Mike

  #49  
Old July 19th 05, 03:35 AM
Earle Horton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

They recommend a new crush sleeve every time, although intuitively it
shouldn't matter, unless the old sleeve has been crushed too much. If that
were the case, your pinion shaft would be real hard to turn now.

That torque wrench extender that Jeff recommended can be purchased at Sears.
The math isn't so bad. ('Course I have a Physics degree.)

In my experience, once a gear set makes noise, that is the end of it. But I
did get lucky that one time in Ohio. That may be because I had three small
kids with me and hardly any money, and I hadn't offended any gods yet.

I really recommend a dial type torque wrench to measure the pinion bearing
preload.

Earle

"Peter Pontbriand" <TRIMsprocketATstormDOTcaTRIM> wrote in message
...
> Yes, I've been trying to use the old crush sleeve.
>
> /Peter
>
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ...
> > 1/8 of a turn is a significant amount.
> >
> > Are you using an old crush sleeve????????????
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
> > >
> > > If the yokes differed in the thickness of the splined part, how would

> that
> > > affect things? Would using a new crush sleeve solve such a problme?
> > >
> > > The pinion nut only turned 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn when going from 160 to

> 250+
> > > ft-lbs, I don't know if that is significant.
> > >
> > > /Peter
> > >
> > > "L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Be sure and tell them you switched yokes, I believe that's your
> > > > problem, because it should slid right in against the bearing like

the
> > > > old one.
> > > > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> > > > http://www.billhughes.com/
> > > >
> > > > Peter Pontbriand wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I did both, I tightened the pinion nut a bit beyond 250

using
> a
> > > > > breaker bar, then put it all back together hoping the preload was
> > > enough. It
> > > > > wasn't. Still lots of howling when coasting and now it howls when
> > > driving at
> > > > > highway speeds too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since I've wasted enough of my time crawling around on the floor

of
> a
> > > > > superheated garage with no hoist and inadequate tools, I'm going

to
> hand
> > > > > this off to a pro, assuming I can find one. Haven't had any luck

so
> far,
> > > > > they keep telling me they don't have torque wrenches that go

beyond
> 250
> > > > > ft-lbs either.
> > > > >
> > > > > /Peter

>
>



  #50  
Old July 19th 05, 04:59 AM
Billy Ray
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A large part of the problem nowadays is that garages no longer have
mechanics, they rely on 'technicians'.

In my opinion an old fashioned mechanic that can tear anything mechanical
apart and fix it in an unheated garage with none of the proper tools is
better than a box full of technicians...




I'm going to hand
> this off to a pro, assuming I can find one. Haven't had any luck so far,
> they keep telling me they don't have torque wrenches that go beyond 250
> ft-lbs either.
>
>



 




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