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Arrite ... alignment & tires



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 22nd 05, 03:05 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Arrite ... alignment & tires

Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.

Here's a follow-up.

Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized these
tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more than
the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center. I
didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out quick
so I would have an excuse for some new ones.

Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
marshmallow tires.

Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.

New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.

When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and the
turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in turn
in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd feel
the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if you
didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn onto a
cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.

OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
what the original specs were?

Left Right
Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
Caster 5.0 4.8
Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT

Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN

Ha... they said "it's in spec", where spec = all of my specs +/- one whole
degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a fit,
insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it right:

Left Right
Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
Caster 5.0 4.8
Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN

Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN

This was with ballast in the driver's seat.

OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier and
bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on the
front!!

So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment specs?

Thanks again for the advice.

Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah you're
not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral kind
of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary. Anyone know of
a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?

See ya-
Ads
  #2  
Old April 22nd 05, 07:14 PM
Lanny Chambers
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article <1114178566.273248@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
wrote:

> Left Right
> Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> Caster 5.0 4.8


I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
understeer in right turns.

---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
  #3  
Old April 22nd 05, 07:38 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lanny Chambers wrote:
> In article <1114178566.273248@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
> wrote:
>
>
>> Left Right
>>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
>> Caster 5.0 4.8

>
>
> I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
> on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
> understeer in right turns.
>
> ---


Is this something I can set in my garage?
  #4  
Old April 22nd 05, 09:19 PM
Lanny Chambers
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article <1114194948.233790@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
wrote:

> > I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
> > on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
> > understeer in right turns.

>
> Is this something I can set in my garage?


Nope.

---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
  #5  
Old April 22nd 05, 09:46 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lanny Chambers wrote:
> In article <1114194948.233790@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
> wrote:
>
>
>>>I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
>>>on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
>>>understeer in right turns.

>>
>>Is this something I can set in my garage?

>
>
> Nope.
>


Grr.

Again with the thing about where's a decent shop in Austin that will do this
right? I am not really enthused about going back and spending another $115
at this place to get one thing adjusted.
  #6  
Old April 23rd 05, 01:47 AM
Leon van Dommelen
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Posts: n/a
Default

josh > wrote:

>Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
>months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.
>
>Here's a follow-up.
>
>Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized these
>tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
>miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more than
>the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
>tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center. I
>didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out quick
>so I would have an excuse for some new ones.
>
>Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
>turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
>steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
>didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
>marshmallow tires.
>
>Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.
>
>New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.
>
>When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and the


Have you upgraded the sway bars on your Miata? If not, off to
racingbeat.com you go.

>turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
>really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in turn
>in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
>react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd feel
>the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
>begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
>turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if you
>didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn onto a
>cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.
>
>OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
>what the original specs were?
>
> Left Right
>Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT
>
>Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
> Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN
>
>Ha... they said "it's in spec",


It is *not* in spec, at least not for my 96. 0.14" toe out is
*way* out of the Mazda spec, and also exceeds the Miq Millman
specs by more than a factor 2.

> where spec = all of my specs +/- one whole
>degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a fit,
>insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
>leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it right:
>
> Left Right
>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
>
>Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7


I agree with Lanny, the left camber difference is too big.

> Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN
>
>This was with ballast in the driver's seat.
>
>OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
>cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
>have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier and
>bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on the
>
>front!!
>
>So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment specs?
>
>Thanks again for the advice.
>
>Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
>argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
>Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah you're
>not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
>don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral kind
>of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
>finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary.


In Tallahassee, they had me sign a warranty waiver on an even
milder one... ;(

> Anyone know of
>a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?


Ask your local SCCA Solo II autocross club. In the sort of places
we live, you can find shops that do it without giving you a hassle
if you do not give them a hassle about doing it right.

Leon

--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
  #7  
Old April 24th 05, 01:10 AM
pws
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

josh wrote:


> Again with the thing about where's a decent shop in Austin that will do
> this right? I am not really enthused about going back and spending
> another $115 at this place to get one thing adjusted.


Two years ago I would have said Mazda South without hesitation. The
first alignment I had done there was near-perfect, the second one seemed
to be done by less capable people.
I have a stack of receipts from my miata that shows where the last
owner had it aligned. I will try to find the receipt, see what he paid,
and let you know where the shop is located sometime in the next couple
of days.

pat
  #8  
Old April 25th 05, 01:13 AM
L Bader
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Josh -

Not sure if you want to run down to San Antonio to get the work done,
but if so, call Steve at Village Parkway Auto at (210) 509-4000. --
He all but demanded I sit in the car while it was aligned.

If you want to stay in Austin, contact Jonny Long at (512) 670-5352.
-- His shop is probably the best for Miatae in Austin.

Good luck...

- L


On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:05:41 -0500, josh > wrote:

>Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
>months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.
>
>Here's a follow-up.
>
>Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized these
>tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
>miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more than
>the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
>tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center. I
>didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out quick
>so I would have an excuse for some new ones.
>
>Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
>turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
>steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
>didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
>marshmallow tires.
>
>Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.
>
>New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.
>
>When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and the
>turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
>really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in turn
>in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
>react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd feel
>the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
>begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
>turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if you
>didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn onto a
>cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.
>
>OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
>what the original specs were?
>
> Left Right
>Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT
>
>Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
> Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN
>
>Ha... they said "it's in spec", where spec = all of my specs +/- one whole
>degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a fit,
>insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
>leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it right:
>
> Left Right
>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
>
>Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
> Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN
>
>This was with ballast in the driver's seat.
>
>OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
>cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
>have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier and
>bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on the
>front!!
>
>So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment specs?
>
>Thanks again for the advice.
>
>Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
>argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
>Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah you're
>not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
>don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral kind
>of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
>finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary. Anyone know of
>a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?
>
>See ya-


'97 STO, "Chouki"

// Change TEJAS to TX to reply via eMail //
  #9  
Old April 25th 05, 02:10 PM
josh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

pws wrote:

> Two years ago I would have said Mazda South without hesitation. The
> first alignment I had done there was near-perfect, the second one seemed
> to be done by less capable people.
> I have a stack of receipts from my miata that shows where the last
> owner had it aligned. I will try to find the receipt, see what he paid,
> and let you know where the shop is located sometime in the next couple
> of days.
>
> pat


There is some shop just down the road from my house in Cedar Park... it's on
Brushy Creek Rd. Often they have *real* race cars there (open-wheel cars),
go-karts, etc., doing some kind of work... I see tractor trailers with race
cars in them there every time and again. Gonna look them up.
  #10  
Old April 25th 05, 06:06 PM
Chris D'Agnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I second Leons comment on sway bar upgrades, best $200 I have ever spent on
my miata. I went the FM route.

Chris
92BB&T

"L Bader" > wrote in message
...
> Josh -
>
> Not sure if you want to run down to San Antonio to get the work done,
> but if so, call Steve at Village Parkway Auto at (210) 509-4000. --
> He all but demanded I sit in the car while it was aligned.
>
> If you want to stay in Austin, contact Jonny Long at (512) 670-5352.
> -- His shop is probably the best for Miatae in Austin.
>
> Good luck...
>
> - L
>
>
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:05:41 -0500, josh > wrote:
>
> >Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
> >months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.
> >
> >Here's a follow-up.
> >
> >Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized

these
> >tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
> >miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more

than
> >the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
> >tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center.

I
> >didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out

quick
> >so I would have an excuse for some new ones.
> >
> >Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in

right
> >turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
> >steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
> >didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt

like
> >marshmallow tires.
> >
> >Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.
> >
> >New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to

32psi.
> >
> >When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and

the
> >turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
> >really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in

turn
> >in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
> >react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd

feel
> >the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
> >begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
> >turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if

you
> >didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn

onto a
> >cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.
> >
> >OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets

on
> >what the original specs were?
> >
> > Left Right
> >Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
> > Caster 5.0 4.8
> > Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT
> >
> >Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
> > Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN
> >
> >Ha... they said "it's in spec", where spec = all of my specs +/- one

whole
> >degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a

fit,
> >insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
> >leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it

right:
> >
> > Left Right
> >Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> > Caster 5.0 4.8
> > Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
> >
> >Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
> > Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN
> >
> >This was with ballast in the driver's seat.
> >
> >OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
> >cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
> >have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier

and
> >bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on

the
> >front!!
> >
> >So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment

specs?
> >
> >Thanks again for the advice.
> >
> >Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
> >argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
> >Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah

you're
> >not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
> >don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral

kind
> >of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
> >finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary. Anyone know

of
> >a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?
> >
> >See ya-

>
> '97 STO, "Chouki"
>
> // Change TEJAS to TX to reply via eMail //



 




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