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'79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 5th 06, 05:24 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Skyjacker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

My '79 CJ-5 304 seems to have fuel related problems. It is difficult to
start when the engine is cold; it turns over fine, but takes too long for the
engine to start. Once running, it emits gassy fumes out of the exhaust side-
pipes that make your clothes smell like gasoline while the top is off.

I had a carb specialist try to adjust the carb, but it didn't help. The carb
is an Edelbrock 4-barrel mounted on an Edelbrock hi-rise manifold. The motor
has a street cam and headers.

I was told that Edelbrock carbs do not work well with 304's, and to get a
Holley Avenger truck carb with an electric choke. Before I drop the cash on a
Holley, I would appreciate some advise to this problem.

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  #2  
Old September 5th 06, 06:20 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
c[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

Without knowing what size carb, choke or no choke, and which manifold, it is
hard to tell you what the problem could be. What I can tell you is that
Edelbrock and Holley carbs are both set up from the factory with a general
tune. This mean the carb may or may not need to be set up properly for your
particular engine. In general, the Edelbrock carbs run too rich with the
factory set up. Normally they will require a metering rod change, and maybe
a jet change as well. You also don't specify the cam specs. When you say
"street cam" that really doesn't tell anyone the specifics of your cam. The
manifold cam also be a factor. Is it single or dual plane? Does it have the
heat crossover to warm the engine properly?

The last thing is, I like some of the features of the Avenger truck carbs,
but a 300 cubic inch engine doesn't need a 670CFM carb. If they make a
smaller version now, it would be cool, but again, you're probably going to
have to do some jet and power valve changes to get the engine running the
way it should. Remember, they call these carbs universal for a reason.

Chris

"Skyjacker" <u26190@uwe> wrote in message news:65d820af401df@uwe...
> My '79 CJ-5 304 seems to have fuel related problems. It is difficult to
> start when the engine is cold; it turns over fine, but takes too long for
> the
> engine to start. Once running, it emits gassy fumes out of the exhaust
> side-
> pipes that make your clothes smell like gasoline while the top is off.
>
> I had a carb specialist try to adjust the carb, but it didn't help. The
> carb
> is an Edelbrock 4-barrel mounted on an Edelbrock hi-rise manifold. The
> motor
> has a street cam and headers.
>
> I was told that Edelbrock carbs do not work well with 304's, and to get a
> Holley Avenger truck carb with an electric choke. Before I drop the cash
> on a
> Holley, I would appreciate some advise to this problem.
>



  #3  
Old September 5th 06, 06:24 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Mike Romain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,758
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

To start, you will 'always' have the gas smell in your clothes from side
pipes, that is why they are not street legal in lots (most) of places.
The gas smell comes with a whole bunch of carbon monoxide as well, which
is deadly.

The exhaust pipes need to exit the body at the back corners on about a
30 to 45 degree angle to be safe and not as smelly.

As you have them, the exhaust vortexes under the wheel well which fills
the cab up. Really dangerous if you have a top or doors on.

The cold start issues can simply be a matter of having the gas filter in
upside down. The filter has 2 outlets. The center outlet goes to the
carb and the 'top' outlet goes to the return line. If the return line
outlet isn't at the top, then gas will syphon back to the tank creating
a vapor lock as it sits.

The return lines primary purpose is to prevent vapor lock after a hot
shutdown also.

A pinhole leak in the suction pipe from the pump to the tank can also
cause cold start issues. It can just let air in when it sits. You can
usually see a stain on the line (usually near a frame clip) or rubber
hose where the leak is.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Skyjacker wrote:
>
> My '79 CJ-5 304 seems to have fuel related problems. It is difficult to
> start when the engine is cold; it turns over fine, but takes too long for the
> engine to start. Once running, it emits gassy fumes out of the exhaust side-
> pipes that make your clothes smell like gasoline while the top is off.
>
> I had a carb specialist try to adjust the carb, but it didn't help. The carb
> is an Edelbrock 4-barrel mounted on an Edelbrock hi-rise manifold. The motor
> has a street cam and headers.
>
> I was told that Edelbrock carbs do not work well with 304's, and to get a
> Holley Avenger truck carb with an electric choke. Before I drop the cash on a
> Holley, I would appreciate some advise to this problem.

  #4  
Old September 6th 06, 07:52 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Dave Milne[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 108
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131 manifold
will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand Wagoneer ?


Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
"c" > wrote in message
...
> Without knowing what size carb, choke or no choke, and which manifold, it

is
> hard to tell you what the problem could be. What I can tell you is that
> Edelbrock and Holley carbs are both set up from the factory with a general
> tune. This mean the carb may or may not need to be set up properly for

your
> particular engine. In general, the Edelbrock carbs run too rich with the
> factory set up. Normally they will require a metering rod change, and

maybe
> a jet change as well. You also don't specify the cam specs.




  #5  
Old September 6th 06, 09:14 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,109
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

You need a cam of at least 270 degrees, like AMC use in the sixties
to be able to use a four barrel:
http://www.compcams.com/technical/Ca...6-07/16-19.pdf Stock muscle
cars used 300 degrees of duration.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Dave Milne wrote:
>
> Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131 manifold
> will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand Wagoneer ?
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

  #6  
Old September 6th 06, 05:59 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
c[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

I guess that means that any car that has a 426 Street Hemi in it isn't
considered a musclecar.

http://www.426-hemi.com/hemi/info/tech/426/specs.htm

Just a "little" 276/284 split duration cam in those grandma engines that had
2 4 barrel carbs from the factory. Also the 340/440 6-pack engines if those
rich old grannies couldn't afford the hemi in their new car back then. And
to think my whole life I though most grandmas would have enough power with
425 HP rated engine that actually made closer to 500 HP when you wound them
a little higher. Those darn grannies!!!

Chris

"L.W.(Bill) Hughes III" > wrote in message
...
> You need a cam of at least 270 degrees, like AMC use in the sixties
> to be able to use a four barrel:
> http://www.compcams.com/technical/Ca...6-07/16-19.pdf Stock muscle
> cars used 300 degrees of duration.
> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
> http://www.billhughes.com/
>
> Dave Milne wrote:
>>
>> Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131 manifold
>> will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand Wagoneer ?
>>
>> Dave Milne, Scotland
>> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ



  #7  
Old September 6th 06, 06:13 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
c[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

Dave,

When the companies that make carb give them their initial settings from the
factory, they take all kinds of compromised in to consideration. They don't
know if the carb will be used on a large or small displacement engine, or if
it will be used in hot or cold climate, high altitude, etc. They also don't
know what other mods have been done to these engines. The baseline settings
they give these carbs will allow them to run on most of the applications
they will see, but they almost always require tuning to get them to be
optimal. My guess would be that this carb would still be a little rich, but
it is just a guess. I'm not saying it won't run, it will, and it will
probably be pretty damn close to right.

The metering rod system that Carter/Edelbrock uses will "adjust" the mixture
based on engine vacuum. The rods are controlled by a piston and spring,
similar to many other carbs. When the engine vacuum is low, the metering rod
spring will start to overtake the vacuum pulling the piston down. The rods
are tapered, and when they move up in the bore they are in, a smaller
diameter of the rod will still be inside the main jet, effectively
increasing the total main jet area that fuel can pass thru. If the engine
runs too rich at high vacuum conditions, but is ok at low vacuum or wide
open throttle, then you simply change the metering rod to on the has a
larger diameter on the part of the rod that is in the jet at high vacuum
conditions. It really is a simple process, and normally will only require 1
or 2 sets of rods to get the carb where you need it to be.

Chris


"Dave Milne" > wrote in message
. uk...
> Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131 manifold
> will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand Wagoneer ?
>
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> "c" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Without knowing what size carb, choke or no choke, and which manifold, it

> is
>> hard to tell you what the problem could be. What I can tell you is that
>> Edelbrock and Holley carbs are both set up from the factory with a
>> general
>> tune. This mean the carb may or may not need to be set up properly for

> your
>> particular engine. In general, the Edelbrock carbs run too rich with the
>> factory set up. Normally they will require a metering rod change, and

> maybe
>> a jet change as well. You also don't specify the cam specs.

>
>
>



  #8  
Old September 6th 06, 06:18 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
c[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

Need to correct myself here. I misread the cam specs. The duration was 276
in 1966-1967 and 284 after that.

"c" > wrote in message
...
>I guess that means that any car that has a 426 Street Hemi in it isn't
>considered a musclecar.
>
> http://www.426-hemi.com/hemi/info/tech/426/specs.htm
>
> Just a "little" 276/284 split duration cam in those grandma engines that
> had 2 4 barrel carbs from the factory. Also the 340/440 6-pack engines if
> those rich old grannies couldn't afford the hemi in their new car back
> then. And to think my whole life I though most grandmas would have enough
> power with 425 HP rated engine that actually made closer to 500 HP when
> you wound them a little higher. Those darn grannies!!!
>
> Chris
>
> "L.W.(Bill) Hughes III" > wrote in message
> ...
>> You need a cam of at least 270 degrees, like AMC use in the sixties
>> to be able to use a four barrel:
>> http://www.compcams.com/technical/Ca...6-07/16-19.pdf Stock muscle
>> cars used 300 degrees of duration.
>> God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
>> http://www.billhughes.com/
>>
>> Dave Milne wrote:
>>>
>>> Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131
>>> manifold
>>> will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand Wagoneer
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Dave Milne, Scotland
>>> '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

>
>



  #9  
Old September 6th 06, 09:35 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Dave Milne[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 108
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

Thanks. Looks like perhaps I should have ordered the calibration kit in
retrospect. Anyhow, after a 2 week wait, it has arrived so I'll fit at the
weekend.

Quite looking forward to it - my carb experience has been mainly with
multiple SU's (single barrel downdraft) and the odd side draft Weber -
never done anything on a 4 barrel like Holley or Edelbrock before.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
"c" > wrote in message
...
> Dave,
>
> When the companies that make carb give them their initial settings from

the
> factory, they take all kinds of compromised in to consideration. They

don't
> know if the carb will be used on a large or small displacement engine, or

if
> it will be used in hot or cold climate, high altitude, etc. They also

don't
> know what other mods have been done to these engines. The baseline

settings
> they give these carbs will allow them to run on most of the applications
> they will see, but they almost always require tuning to get them to be
> optimal. My guess would be that this carb would still be a little rich,

but
> it is just a guess. I'm not saying it won't run, it will, and it will
> probably be pretty damn close to right.
>
> The metering rod system that Carter/Edelbrock uses will "adjust" the

mixture
> based on engine vacuum. The rods are controlled by a piston and spring,
> similar to many other carbs. When the engine vacuum is low, the metering

rod
> spring will start to overtake the vacuum pulling the piston down. The rods
> are tapered, and when they move up in the bore they are in, a smaller
> diameter of the rod will still be inside the main jet, effectively
> increasing the total main jet area that fuel can pass thru. If the engine
> runs too rich at high vacuum conditions, but is ok at low vacuum or wide
> open throttle, then you simply change the metering rod to on the has a
> larger diameter on the part of the rod that is in the jet at high vacuum
> conditions. It really is a simple process, and normally will only require

1
> or 2 sets of rods to get the carb where you need it to be.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "Dave Milne" > wrote in message
> . uk...
> > Any idea if the Edelbrock 600cfm 1405 Performer + Edelbrock 2131

manifold
> > will require a metering or jet change on a stock 360 '91 Grand Wagoneer

?
> >
> >
> > Dave Milne, Scotland
> > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> > "c" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Without knowing what size carb, choke or no choke, and which manifold,

it
> > is
> >> hard to tell you what the problem could be. What I can tell you is that
> >> Edelbrock and Holley carbs are both set up from the factory with a
> >> general
> >> tune. This mean the carb may or may not need to be set up properly for

> > your
> >> particular engine. In general, the Edelbrock carbs run too rich with

the
> >> factory set up. Normally they will require a metering rod change, and

> > maybe
> >> a jet change as well. You also don't specify the cam specs.

> >
> >
> >

>
>



  #10  
Old September 7th 06, 01:08 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,109
Default '79 304 Edelbrock carb problems vs Holley carbs?

The whole idea of a hemispherical chapped dome is to fit bigger
valves. Maybe they thought that was adequate for a street engine. And
keep their customers from sucking valves. I ran 330 degrees with an ISky
Roller: http://www.billhughes.com/IskyRR1000.jpg In my Seven:
http://billhughes.com/thunderb.htm What do you run?
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O


c wrote:
>
> Need to correct myself here. I misread the cam specs. The duration was 276
> in 1966-1967 and 284 after that.

 




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