starter or something else?

About 4 times over the last couple of weeks I have tried to start my
1999 Plymouth Grand Voyager and there is no response, no or little
noise from anything. After turning the key 3 or 4 more times I will
start to get some response and eventually enough to start the engine.
I can then shut the engine down and it will start on the first try.
The battery tests good and it is getitng a charge whent eh engine is
running so I think the alternator is OK.

My question: is it the starter that is bad or could it be the ignition
switch or some relay in between the switch and the starter and if so
how do I diagnose?

Thanks for any tips!


John Keith

This sounds like the very common solenoid contacts. Do a search of the
archives of this newsgroup or Google since this comes up every few months.
The key words are "Nippondenso solenoid contacts". These are easily
replaceable. Bill Putney just recently provided a hyperlink to an
inexpensive source on the web for the contacts and the plunger too.

Make sure all your cable connections at the battery, the engine ground and
the starter are all clean and tight. If you hear a click and no start, then
it is probably the solenoid contacts. These usually last about 5-7 years
and 50-80K miles.

Good luck.

Bob

"John Keith" > wrote in message
...
> About 4 times over the last couple of weeks I have tried to start my
> 1999 Plymouth Grand Voyager and there is no response, no or little
> noise from anything. After turning the key 3 or 4 more times I will
> start to get some response and eventually enough to start the engine.
> I can then shut the engine down and it will start on the first try.
> The battery tests good and it is getitng a charge whent eh engine is
> running so I think the alternator is OK.
>
> My question: is it the starter that is bad or could it be the ignition
> switch or some relay in between the switch and the starter and if so
> how do I diagnose?
>
> Thanks for any tips!
>
>
> John Keith
>

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 19:07:29 -0600, "Bob Shuman"
> wrote:

>This sounds like the very common solenoid contacts. Do a search of the
>archives of this newsgroup or Google since this comes up every few months.
>The key words are "Nippondenso solenoid contacts". These are easily
>replaceable. Bill Putney just recently provided a hyperlink to an
>inexpensive source on the web for the contacts and the plunger too.
>
>Make sure all your cable connections at the battery, the engine ground and
>the starter are all clean and tight. If you hear a click and no start, then
>it is probably the solenoid contacts. These usually last about 5-7 years
>and 50-80K miles.
>
>Good luck.

Bob,

Thank you fo rthe quick reply!

Your comments and the first few sites I found the web do sound like my
situation. Unfortunately the contact fix still requires removing the
starter which makes me wonder if replacing the starter is the
preferred fix since I can buy a starter off the shelf tomorrow but it
might take a week or so to get the contacts (I'm assuming contacts are
not available at the local auto parts store???)

Bob, could you contact me directly at my email? I'd like to ask you
about searching newgroup archives.


John Keith

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:12:39 -0700, John Keith > wrote:

>Your comments and the first few sites I found the web do sound like my
>situation. Unfortunately the contact fix still requires removing the
>starter which makes me wonder if replacing the starter is the
>preferred fix since I can buy a starter off the shelf tomorrow but it
>might take a week or so to get the contacts (I'm assuming contacts are
>not available at the local auto parts store???)

Additional follow up after some more web searching:

It migt be possible to remove the solenoid parts wtihout removing the
starter. That would be a step in the right direction!

Contacts might be available locally, I do have a auto electric shop in
the area and will check with them tomorrow. Will they have the plunger
as well????? I'll also check to see if the dealer has these parts
available.

I read of some accounts where repacement parts were fabricated from
copper pipe and even pennies (or even rotating the original parts.)
Fabricating sounds intriguing but I would anticipate the car being
unusable for a longer period of time.

Does the original problem ever result in the car being completely
disabled????


John Keith

In article >,
John Keith > wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:12:39 -0700, John Keith > wrote:
>
> >Your comments and the first few sites I found the web do sound like my
> >situation. Unfortunately the contact fix still requires removing the
> >starter which makes me wonder if replacing the starter is the
> >preferred fix since I can buy a starter off the shelf tomorrow but it
> >might take a week or so to get the contacts (I'm assuming contacts are
> >not available at the local auto parts store???)

I'd stick with the starter you have now. Better the devil you
know than the one you don't.
The Nippon-Denso starters are very well engineered until some
minimum wage rebuilder gets at 'em.
Why spend $200 on a rebuilt unit of questionable quality when you
can fix it for $13.00

> Additional follow up after some more web searching:
>
> It migt be possible to remove the solenoid parts wtihout removing the
> starter. That would be a step in the right direction!

The starter is very easy to remove and install, the repair is
better done on the bench because there are some fiddly small
parts (insulators and o-rings) that must be handled when
replacing the contacts.
>
> Contacts might be available locally, I do have a auto electric shop in
> the area and will check with them tomorrow. Will they have the plunger
> as well????? I'll also check to see if the dealer has these parts
> available.

Not a dealer item.
Depending on where you live, this supplier may be able to get the
parts to you in a day or so;
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...de=VLP&MfrPart
Number=ND34SOL

> I read of some accounts where repacement parts were fabricated from
> copper pipe and even pennies (or even rotating the original parts.)
> Fabricating sounds intriguing but I would anticipate the car being
> unusable for a longer period of time.
>
> Does the original problem ever result in the car being completely
> disabled????

Eventually, yes, but I've had customers nurse them along for more
than a month with the symptoms.

John Keith wrote:


> Bob,
>
> Thank you fo rthe quick reply!
>
> Your comments and the first few sites I found the web do sound like my
> situation. Unfortunately the contact fix still requires removing the
> starter which makes me wonder if replacing the starter is the
> preferred fix since I can buy a starter off the shelf tomorrow but it
> might take a week or so to get the contacts (I'm assuming contacts are
> not available at the local auto parts store???)


Replacing the starter is proabably "easier," but then you'll be stuck
with a piece-of-junk rebuilt starter that might not last a month. A
factory-assembled starter will happily out-live 2 sets of solenoid
contacts, so IMO replacing the contacts is a better long-term solution.

John Keith wrote:


>
> Does the original problem ever result in the car being completely
> disabled????
>

Eventually, yes the car will be disabled. But it will go a very long
time if you're willing to keep trying until it finally cranks.

>My question: is it the starter that is bad or could it be the ignition
>switch or some relay in between the switch and the starter and if so
>how do I diagnose?
>
Here is a summary of my experience for others who may face this same
problem.

The problem appears to be the contacts. The ones I removed are indeed
worn and at least after doing the replacement the car has started
successfully twice.

The job was alittle mroe difficult than I thought it would be. The
starter is mounted with two bolts and the head on the top bolt was a
blind operation which made it difficult. Access to the lower bolt was
not that great either but at least I could see the head. Clearance
around both bolts was minimal, no room for fingers and when I got a
rachet or wrench on the head the swing was minimal so it took a long
time getting the bolts out and back in. Removing the 12V low current
control wire was also difficult becauser there was some locking
mechanism on the connector and while it was fairly obvious how it
needed to move it was not easy to do. I had thought about the
possibility of replacing the contacts without dropping the starter but
after looking at that it would have been very difficult to do. I
purchased the contact and plunger by finding the part on the following
web page:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...mber=ND34S OL

The price on the web page was $12.99 but when I go to the store that
had it (only one of five stores in my area had it in stock) it was
$17, I guess I should have paid for it on the web and done a store
pick up! I did find a auto electric repair shop that would sell me
just the contacts for $7.50, but they wanted me to bring in the old
contacts so they could match them and I didn't want the vehicle
disabled during that exercise. I did find a rebuilt starter at
Advanced Parts that claimed to be a Nippondenso original that was
rebuilt in Mexico, but it cost $109.

The job took about two hours. Lots of lying on the garage floor and
getting up and down because you needed to be under the car and then
over the top of the radiator frequently, especially when puttin gthe
starter back in palce and getting the top bolt started.

Thanks to everyone who provided some insight on this problem! I hope
my comments will be useful to someone in the future.


John Keith

In article >,
John Keith > wrote:

> >My question: is it the starter that is bad or could it be the ignition
> >switch or some relay in between the switch and the starter and if so
> >how do I diagnose?
> >
> Here is a summary of my experience for others who may face this same
> problem.
>
> The problem appears to be the contacts. The ones I removed are indeed
> worn and at least after doing the replacement the car has started
> successfully twice.
>
> The job was alittle mroe difficult than I thought it would be. The
> starter is mounted with two bolts and the head on the top bolt was a
> blind operation which made it difficult. Access to the lower bolt was
> not that great either but at least I could see the head. Clearance
> around both bolts was minimal, no room for fingers and when I got a
> rachet or wrench on the head the swing was minimal so it took a long
> time getting the bolts out and back in. Removing the 12V low current
> control wire was also difficult becauser there was some locking
> mechanism on the connector and while it was fairly obvious how it
> needed to move it was not easy to do. I had thought about the
> possibility of replacing the contacts without dropping the starter but
> after looking at that it would have been very difficult to do. I
> purchased the contact and plunger by finding the part on the following
> web page:
>
> http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...rtNumber=ND34S
> OL
>
> The price on the web page was $12.99 but when I go to the store that
> had it (only one of five stores in my area had it in stock) it was
> $17, I guess I should have paid for it on the web and done a store
> pick up! I did find a auto electric repair shop that would sell me
> just the contacts for $7.50, but they wanted me to bring in the old
> contacts so they could match them and I didn't want the vehicle
> disabled during that exercise. I did find a rebuilt starter at
> Advanced Parts that claimed to be a Nippondenso original that was
> rebuilt in Mexico, but it cost $109.
>
> The job took about two hours. Lots of lying on the garage floor and
> getting up and down because you needed to be under the car and then
> over the top of the radiator frequently, especially when puttin gthe
> starter back in palce and getting the top bolt started.
>
> Thanks to everyone who provided some insight on this problem! I hope
> my comments will be useful to someone in the future.
>
>
> John Keith
>

Good job John.

Next one will go much quicker (think of it as making $100+ an
hour)

$17 is still a good deal, the rebuilders around here want $45 for
the plunger and contacts.

As for the contacts for $7.50, I buy them in packs of ten for 29
and 39 cents apiece.

John Keith wrote:
>> My question: is it the starter that is bad or could it be the ignition
>> switch or some relay in between the switch and the starter and if so
>> how do I diagnose?
>>
> Here is a summary of my experience for others who may face this same
> problem.
>
> The problem appears to be the contacts. The ones I removed are indeed
> worn and at least after doing the replacement the car has started
> successfully twice.
>
> The job was alittle mroe difficult than I thought it would be. The
> starter is mounted with two bolts and the head on the top bolt was a
> blind operation which made it difficult. Access to the lower bolt was
> not that great either but at least I could see the head. Clearance
> around both bolts was minimal, no room for fingers and when I got a
> rachet or wrench on the head the swing was minimal so it took a long
> time getting the bolts out and back in. Removing the 12V low current
> control wire was also difficult becauser there was some locking
> mechanism on the connector and while it was fairly obvious how it
> needed to move it was not easy to do. I had thought about the
> possibility of replacing the contacts without dropping the starter but
> after looking at that it would have been very difficult to do. I
> purchased the contact and plunger by finding the part on the following
> web page:
>
> http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...mber=ND34S OL
>
> The price on the web page was $12.99 but when I go to the store that
> had it (only one of five stores in my area had it in stock) it was
> $17, I guess I should have paid for it on the web and done a store
> pick up! I did find a auto electric repair shop that would sell me
> just the contacts for $7.50, but they wanted me to bring in the old
> contacts so they could match them and I didn't want the vehicle
> disabled during that exercise. I did find a rebuilt starter at
> Advanced Parts that claimed to be a Nippondenso original that was
> rebuilt in Mexico, but it cost $109.
>
> The job took about two hours. Lots of lying on the garage floor and
> getting up and down because you needed to be under the car and then
> over the top of the radiator frequently, especially when puttin gthe
> starter back in palce and getting the top bolt started.
>
> Thanks to everyone who provided some insight on this problem! I hope
> my comments will be useful to someone in the future.
>
>
> John Keith
>

John - your description of the process was precisely my experience on
the 2nd gen. LH 3.2/3.5 engine, right down to the difficulty of getting
the connector off the solenoid. For that, after working blind for
several minutes, I finally got my digital camera out and and was able to
get it in where my head wouldn't fit and get some useful macro shots
that showed me where the latch was located and where it needed to be
pressed. It was either that or I used a dental mirror - I forget which.

The contact/plunger kit (exact same one you linked for your Voyager) was
not available in local Advance stores - the partsamerica page even
stated that - at least when I got mine a few months ago - perhaps that's
changed, or perhaps that varies by region or chain (Advance, Kragen,
Checker, etc.) - they do have you enter your zip code when drilling down
in the parts searches.

Anyway - good write up. Anyone needing to do this job for the first
time would do well to read John's writeup.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')